Oily skin and dry skin are two skin type extremes each with their own common stereotypes, misperceptions, and truths. Does one skin type age better than another? Will water intake improve dry skin issues? Should oily skin be cleansed more often? Ella and Maggie discuss some of the common characteristics of these two skin types and their common truths and misperceptions.
About Ella Cressman:
Ella Cressman is a licensed esthetician, certified organic formulator, business owner, and absolute ingredient junkie! As an educator, she enjoys empowering other estheticians and industry professionals to understand skin care from an ingredient standpoint rather than a product-specific view.
She has spent many hours researching ingredients, understanding how and where they are sourced, as well as phytochemistry, histological access, and complementary compounds for intentional skin benefits. In addition to running a skin care practice, Cressman founded a comprehensive consulting group, the HHP Collective, and has consulted for several skin care lines, including several successful CBD brands.
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About Maggie Staszcuk:
Maggie has been a licensed esthetician since 2006 and holds a bachelor’s degree in business administration from Stephens College. She has worked in the spa and med-spa industry, and served as an esthetics instructor and a director of education for one of the largest schools in Colorado before coming to ASCP as the Advanced Modality Specialist.
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0:00:00.5 Speaker 1: DMK is the World Leader in Paramedical Skin Revision education with certification programs designed to give licensed professionals a thorough understanding of the skin and an in-depth study of the DMK concept of REMOVE. REBUILD. PROTECT. MAINTAIN. Created by the botanical visionary Danné Montague-King, DMK offers skin revision training and education for all ages, skin conditions and ethnicities in more than 35 countries, harnessing the body's innate healing mechanisms to change the health of the skin. Learn more at dannemking.com, that's D-A-N-N-E-M-K-I-N-G dot com.
0:00:49.3 S1: You are listening to ASCP Esty Talk, where we share insider tips, industry resources and education for estheticians at every stage of the journey. Let's talk because ASCP knows it's all about you.
0:01:04.0 Maggie Staszcuk: Hello and welcome to ASCP's Esty Talk. I'm your co-host, Maggie Staszcuk, ASCP's Cosmetology Education Manager.
0:01:11.5 Ella Cressman: And I am your co-host Ella Cressman, a licensed esthetician, a certified organic skin care formulator, ingredient junkie and content contributor for Associated Skin Care Professionals.
0:01:21.2 Tracy Donley: And I'm Tracy Donley, and I am just jumping into the show today. I am a freeloader, so I hope you enjoy my commentary...
0:01:28.3 EC: Oh we love it.
0:01:28.7 TD: I'm the ASCP Executive Director.
0:01:31.3 MS: Today's podcast is all about oily versus dry skin, and there is a request from one of our listeners. There are many stereotypes and misconceptions about dry and oily skin, and it's not uncommon for these skin types to be the result of product use, lifestyle, medications or disorders. We've talked about skin type and condition in the past, but this podcast is going to focus on these two extremes. So to start, let's dive into some of the common characteristics of these two skin types and some of their truths and misperceptions.
0:02:01.2 EC: Oily and dry skin have a few stereotypes. Let's start with oily skin and let's define oily skin. Oily skin is a result of an overproduction of sebum, and sebum is the waxy oily substance that protects and moisturizes the skin. Oily skin is thought to appear shiny, feel greasy, have enlarged pores and be prone to acne, but that's not always the case. Another common belief is that oily skin type will age better and slower when compared to dry skin types. So is there any truth to this? What do you think, Maggie?
0:02:36.2 MS: I have always thought if you're more oily, you're gonna stay young.
0:02:40.5 EC: Yeah, I've heard that too, 'cause your skin is more hydrated, but the answer is both yes and no. So having oily skin may contribute to a reduction in wrinkles, but really it's not addressing the degradation of collagen and elastin, which is the aging part. So a part of aging, yes. Because as we know also with aging skin, we lose lipids, so oily skin would address that, but not necessarily the structure of the skin in collagen and elastin. Because wrinkles form due to a breakdown of that, not from oil or a lack of oil production.
0:03:15.0 TD: Question on that, why does my skin appear oily sometimes, but then other times it doesn't? Would I be considered to have oily skin?
0:03:26.1 MS: Maybe, I think we might touch on this further in the podcast, but maybe you have combination skin, which is the bane of Ella's existence. You maybe need some balancing, you maybe stripping your skin, which is causing overproduction of oil. There's a lot of factors.
0:03:41.8 EC: Okay, yeah. Nails on chalkboard...
0:03:44.3 EC: Combination.
0:03:47.9 MS: Often when we see oily skin, our first instinct is to annihilate it, break out the big guns of oil fighting oil-stripping ingredients and products and declare war. But there is more to it than that, and the truth is investigating, what is the cause? So to your point Tracy, finding out what's causing that oil production, it could be things like hereditary factors, intrinsic factors, diet, lifestyle, medication, product usage, that would be more an extrinsic factor I think, other influences, like over-stripping the skin. And a big misconception with oily skin in my opinion is that oily skin should avoid oils, so don't avoid them, embrace them, in my opinion.
0:04:31.6 TD: That was a hard thing to do.
0:04:33.4 MS: Do you use oils?
0:04:34.4 TD: I use oil morning and night, and it is challenge... It was so challenging. Now I even wash... I cleanse my face with a type of oil.
0:04:42.1 MS: Yeah, good for you.
0:04:42.6 TD: I won't say the brand, but it's very good. But yeah, that is challenging.
0:04:47.1 MS: Yeah, yeah, so many clients, they freak at the thought of applying oils to their skin or even using a moisturizer. It can seem illogical to some people if they have oily skin, but the right nourishing oil, it can send the message to the skin to slow down oil production, or at least help balance that oil production. And a cleansing oil, which, good job, Tracy, also works wonders as an initial cleanse to break through make-up, break through sebum and also help to decongest and remove comedones.
0:05:15.5 EC: One of the conversations I have with my clients about getting them on oil when they have that client freak moment like, "Are you sure?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm sure." And one of the clients, I said, she's like, "Are you sure you're sure?" I said, "Girl, I am sure, I'm sure."
0:05:27.8 MS: I have been there, I have been there.
0:05:28.4 EC: She said, "But it's not a moisturizer." I go, "Do you know a moisturizer is a whipped oil?" And she looked at me mind blown, and that's all I had to say, and it's a whipped oil.
0:05:40.6 TD: I think especially trying to get... I try to get my teenager on oil and that to them with acne, it's like "What?" Like I cannot. I leave it up to the pros.
0:05:52.6 EC: I love oil for... The problem is, we lump in oily and acne. And then we also combine dry and sensitive, or dry and dehydrated.
0:06:04.0 TD: Yeah.
0:06:04.3 EC: We lump these two skin care conditions or types together often, but they don't always equal each other, you can have dry acne.
0:06:13.1 MS: Yeah, exactly.
0:06:14.4 EC: And you can have oily sensitive.
0:06:17.3 TD: It just blew my brain.
0:06:18.7 EC: No, it happens, and so what you really need to look at is what's missing, What's going on? Where is the deficiency?
0:06:26.2 MS: I think another thing too, that people don't always think about is oil and water repel, so when you're washing your face and you're using these water-based oil-free products and splashing water on your skin, you're not really breaking through that oil and grime to get a good cleanse.
0:06:43.1 TD: That is so mind-blowing. That's great, yes. Look at me.
0:06:48.3 TD: Again, I'm just the freeloader in the conversation here, so bear with me.
0:06:52.8 EC: No, but it's true, it's one of my favorite things for acne actually, especially where we live, where it's mostly dry, or especially for inflamed acne because you're starting to just... What's the first problem is a compromise barrier, and then the second problem is the sebaceous filaments that turn into painful acne in the first place. That brings me to oily skin and imbalance, so when we also know... Combination skin. Oh that was so hard for me to say.
0:07:19.7 TD: That's my favorite thing to order.
0:07:21.0 EC: Combination skin.
0:07:21.7 TD: On Chinese menus, it's combination.
0:07:24.1 EC: Well, not on esthetics menu. Because for me, it's a cop-out term.
0:07:28.0 TD: Okay.
0:07:29.2 EC: And it's a...
0:07:29.3 MS: And I disagree with you. We've had this conversation.
0:07:31.0 EC: Yes, we've had.
0:07:31.4 TD: Oh finally.
0:07:31.7 EC: And I feel like there's a problem, right? There's a problem 'cause there's an imbalance, and that is a combination skin, what that imbalance stems from may be that it produces too much oil that they're stripping with skin care products, that they're overly estranging, which is the case in a client I had yesterday, actually, which would be a perfect person to talk about this with. Or there's irritating ingredients like Sodium Lauryl Sulfates or they're cleansing more than they should, sometimes even exfoliating more than necessary can send the skin into a panic and cause it to produce more sebum in order to repair the barrier function. And I was surprised actually, at the internet's advice concerning both oily and dry skin types, and it's no wonder that clients are confused or that, you know, that we got this question, "Hey, can you help me describe this? 'Cause I'm having a hard time." So let's just take a little peak, shall we? At what the American Academy of Dermatology says on how to control oil.
0:08:32.1 TD: Oh, you're calling some people out.
0:08:36.1 EC: Shall we? [chuckle] So number one, do wash your face every morning, evening and after exercise, if you have oily skin? This is to combat against oily skin.
0:08:47.3 MS: Disagree.
0:08:48.6 EC: Disagree. I agree that I disagree with you. I agree with you that we both disagree, so let's talk about it. Why not Maggie, why not wash your face five times a day?
0:08:57.0 MS: Well, like you...
0:08:58.3 TD: Are you working out that much 'cause I know I'm not.
0:09:00.8 MS: Like you just said yeah, yeah you're gonna...
0:09:01.6 EC: You're gonna tie my shoes, remember?
0:09:04.6 TD: Way down there.
0:09:05.5 MS: And pick up the mail.
0:09:08.0 TD: Oh, that's heavy.
0:09:10.4 MS: Yes. You're gonna end up stripping the skin and disrupting that barrier function and then produce more oil.
0:09:16.6 EC: Yeah, yeah, this is a hard analogy because it's kind of like, it's a toilet, but you know in the toilet, when you flush in the back and the tank, it fills up to a certain level and then it stops, you know you have a malfunction in the tank when it keeps running. Right? There's a problem. This is how I envision oil production, there's a malfunction in the sebaceous gland in that it's continuing to produce oil because it hasn't received the signal, this is, "We're good. We've got enough here." So if you're stripping off, guess what? The factory is working harder. So to me, in my opinion, washing your face this much is actually causing harm and interrupting the barrier function or the acid mantle. So that goes in to do... This is again, American Academy of Dermatology, do choose skin care products that are labeled oil-free and noncomedogenic? What are your thoughts?
0:10:04.3 MS: I agree and disagree.
0:10:06.1 EC: What are your thoughts, Tracey?
0:10:07.6 TD: Maggie you can't do that.
0:10:10.6 TD: Well, I just don't understand the value of an oil-free product. So that's hard for me because we had just talked, a few seconds ago about how oil breaks down, you know, it's gonna create a barrier, plus it's also going to break down other oils, so...
0:10:29.7 EC: I agree and disagree that sometimes oil-free... It depends on if they're using butters or such, some oil-free products are good for some clients who have oily skin, but not always, and I recognize that this organization is just putting out some general guidelines, so they're trying to cast a large net. But my problem with that is that people then are so afraid of oil that then as professionals, we have to uneducate and then re-educate them on the subject. And then we all know my thoughts on noncomedogenic and the comedogenic scale and how antiquated that is...
0:11:05.6 TD: Remind us really quick.
0:11:07.6 EC: Well, it's... Well, check out the podcast on comedogenic.
0:11:11.5 TD: Well, just give us a summary.
0:11:13.2 EC: But it's basically... It's a scale, it's an antiquated scale that they would take up one ingredient, not formulations, just one single ingredient and put it on people's backs who had really, really large pores...
0:11:25.0 TD: Oh, I remember.
0:11:25.1 EC: Or on the ears of rabbits, of white male rabbits to see if it was gonna cause a blackhead or not, but that doesn't lend to the entire formulation, so it's like saying wine will get you drunk, but if you make a sauce with a little white wine in it...
0:11:40.5 TD: That'll get you drunk too?
0:11:41.5 EC: In the... Similar theory, theoretically, according to these people. But it's not the case. We know that that's not true. It just adds to the flavour. Same with some of these comedogenic ingredients, it's not fair. It's not a fair scale, but anyways...
0:11:54.3 TD: I mean, no sauce that I would make would probably get you drunk. I'm just saying.
0:11:58.0 EC: That'll be the glass next to it.
0:12:01.2 EC: And it says, do you use gentle foaming face wash?
0:12:04.2 MS: Again, I agree, and I disagree.
0:12:06.3 EC: Let's talk about why you agree.
0:12:07.8 MS: I think that a gentle foaming face wash is great for oily skin, but they also can benefit from so many other different kinds of face wash, it doesn't have to be foaming, they could use a gel and oil cleanse, like we've talked about, could also be beneficial. And sometimes the oily skin also needs something really freaking active.
0:12:29.5 EC: Yes, I would agree. I also would say using gentle is acceptable or active is acceptable, but foaming... Why is it foaming? What's the ingredient and then that's causing it to foam, because those could be irritating.
0:12:41.5 TD: Hey guys stop! Let's take a quick break.
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0:13:22.7 TD: Let's get back to the conversation.
0:13:25.1 EC: Next one that they have number four is don't use oil-based or alcohol-based cleansers.
0:13:30.5 MS: Disagree. [laughter]
0:13:32.0 TD: Well what's the base? Just water, is that what they're recommending then... I mean, if it's not oil and it's not alcohol, it would be...
0:13:39.6 MS: That would be my guess, they're probably saying...
0:13:41.6 TD: It's water-based...
0:13:42.8 MS: Water based, yeah, oil-free water-based...
0:13:44.0 TD: Which means...
0:13:44.6 MS: Cleanser.
0:13:44.9 TD: Not a lot of activity happening there.
0:13:47.0 MS: Yeah.
0:13:47.0 EC: Mm-hmm.
0:13:47.0 TD: Yeah.
0:13:47.0 EC: Or salicylic... They are probably are gonna say a salicylic acid or some benzoyl peroxide or something that again is appropriate in instances, but not all acne is the same.
0:13:57.2 MS: Mm-hmm.
0:13:57.7 EC: Do apply moisturizer daily. Agree.
0:14:00.2 MS: Agree.
0:14:00.8 TD: I Agree.
0:14:01.7 TD: Agree with sunscreen...
0:14:02.9 EC: I agree.
0:14:03.2 TD: Sun protection, pardon me.
0:14:04.8 EC: Sun protection.
0:14:05.7 MS: Sun protection.
0:14:06.6 EC: Well they have five is do apply moisturizer and six is do wear sunscreen.
0:14:11.9 TD: Do you choose oil free, water based make-up?
0:14:16.2 EC: I agree, you.
0:14:17.8 MS: Yeah. If you are oily and acne prone, then yeah, you should have probably a very light oil-free, water-based make-up. To say that it is not oil free or it's not water-based, to me, I'm thinking like a cake make-up, which would clog the pores, would exacerbate that oil production and probably just end up like a runny mess by the end of the day.
0:14:38.6 TD: How about a mineral product?
0:14:40.5 MS: Yeah.
0:14:40.7 EC: That's what I would...
0:14:41.5 MS: Yeah.
0:14:41.6 EC: Suggest, probably...
0:14:42.3 MS: Totally.
0:14:43.1 EC: I mean... That would be better.
0:14:44.8 MS: Yeah.
0:14:45.1 EC: It's probably a mineral water-based.
0:14:49.3 MS: Mm-hmm.
0:14:49.3 EC: Uh-huh. And don't sleep in your make-up.
0:14:52.5 MS: Agree. [chuckle]
0:14:52.8 TD: Well, agree.
0:14:53.3 EC: But...
0:14:53.5 TD: Do as I say...
0:14:54.2 MS: I will say...
0:14:54.7 TD: No say as I do, get a facial wipe if you're in a hurry.
0:14:57.0 MS: I have done that the last few nights...
0:14:58.4 EC: Yeah.
0:15:00.0 MS: Which is why I've got these pimples on my face.
0:15:01.2 EC: What about mineral makeup? Is mineral make up so good, why can't I sleep it?
0:15:04.8 TD: No. And you also have to see if they have, what is it? Talc in that?
0:15:09.3 MS: Talc...
0:15:09.8 TD: Be careful 'cause that's a mineral.
0:15:13.1 MS: Isn't that Oxy-chloride?
0:15:13.2 EC: Do you... This one I have a hard time with.
0:15:16.3 EC: This is like combination skin.
0:15:19.7 EC: Do you use blotting papers throughout the day?
0:15:23.1 MS: My comment to that is who cares? Why?
0:15:26.1 TD: My comment to that is like, "Hmm. No."
0:15:28.5 EC: My comment...
0:15:29.0 TD: Figure it out.
0:15:29.7 EC: To that is "Why are you blotting your face that many times?" 'Cause you need to adjust your skin care routine.
0:15:34.6 TD: Yes, that's what I'm screaming.
0:15:36.4 EC: That's why I care.
0:15:37.2 TD: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
0:15:39.2 MS: That's weird though. That they would suggest that.
0:15:40.9 TD: I think that was very like '80s. I remember when those were like at Rexall drugs, you can get blotting papers.
0:15:48.7 MS: Still now, they still have them.
0:15:49.7 TD: Really.
0:15:50.0 MS: On Amazon. TikTok. They're like, "Oh, look at... ", yeah oh TikTok is this like plethora of like what? Why?
0:15:57.0 TD: That's a whole another podcast.
0:15:58.1 MS: Yeah [chuckle]
0:16:00.4 EC: Don't touch your face throughout the day.
0:16:01.0 MS: Agree.
0:16:01.5 EC: Agree.
0:16:02.3 TD: I agree. But that is a hard one. I touch my face... I would hate to have a camera on me 24/7, how much I touch my face, I'd throw up.
0:16:11.5 MS: Yes [chuckle]
0:16:11.7 EC: Do as I say, not as I do.
0:16:13.4 TD: True.
0:16:14.1 EC: What about dry skin?
0:16:15.4 MS: So dry skin is typically dull make it rough, flaky even scaly, maybe even feels tight, less elastic and definitely prone in my opinion to fine lines and wrinkles. May also become itchy or irritated. And many people sometimes associate dry skin with just a winter issue. And although it's very common in the winter months, when the air is more dry, dry skin actually occurs year-round. And this is where the line between skin type and skin condition gets blurred. So dry skin, it often gets confused with what we call dehydrated skin. Skin lacking in water. And the two definitions are very similar, so dehydrated skin also is dry and itchy, perhaps look dull looking too, your overall tone and complexion may appear uneven and fine lines are also more noticeable. But the biggest difference is that dry skin is a type that you cannot change and dehydrated skin is a condition that can be corrected.
0:17:14.1 EC: So hydration versus moisture, right?
0:17:16.8 MS: Yes. I'm sorry, was that a question?
0:17:18.7 TD: That sounded just so profound, didn't it? It was so profound.
0:17:21.7 EC: Hydration versus moisture. Exclamation point.
0:17:26.0 EC: Very good. So how often do you hear "Drink more water"?
0:17:29.0 MS: Yes, all the time.
0:17:29.4 EC: That's one of the things we tell our clients, that's one of the things for health purposes, don't stop. Especially if you live in high altitude or dry areas like we don't have... We have absolutely probably negative moisture in the air here where we are and plus we are at a higher elevation. But it's not always the cure for the dry skin type, it does help replenish water loss and can aid those who are dehydrated and lacking water, but it's not a cure all for those with dry skin and whose barrier function is working properly. Again, it's about investigating what is causing this dryness, something I would... This is scope of practice, full disclosure. I would suggest that my clients start their day with a large glass of water, say 20 ounces and fish oil...
0:18:14.4 MS: Mm-hmm.
0:18:14.5 EC: If they weren't allergic... That that is something that I saw a huge difference in both skin types, oily skin types and dry skin types or dehydrated skin types, that that was getting water and oil into their system, and there was an amazing improvement.
0:18:28.6 MS: I was gonna say, do you think that that fish oil actually helps balance oil production?
0:18:35.4 EC: I'm not sure we could ask Ben.
0:18:38.4 TD: I think he would probably say "Yes", because he recommends every single person to have a fish oil or a big spoon full of them, like a three oil in the morning.
0:18:47.7 EC: I will say that as a non-qualified professional that my observation is "Yes".
0:18:54.0 MS: I was gonna say "I'm not a doctor...
0:18:55.9 EC: Yeah.
0:18:56.1 MS: But yes.
0:18:57.2 EC: It would definitely... It was my observation that it changed in my own self, in my own self and my own personal... I could tell when I haven't had enough water like today, my lips are sticking to each other, I'm really talking like Popeye out of the side of my mouth. But... Same with my hands and everything and that's when I have that dry... Or you know what, let's be honest, when you're hung over, like maybe you've been hung over before, but that's...
0:19:18.5 TD: Never.
0:19:18.6 EC: Lack of water [laughter]
0:19:19.8 TD: No [chuckle]
0:19:20.0 EC: And your skin on your hands looks different. Your skin on your hands...
0:19:24.3 TD: That's the tell tale first before you look in the mirror even, and you see your hands and you're like, "Shhh aye,"
0:19:29.0 EC: I had too much last night.
0:19:32.1 TD: Or just "I'm dehydrated" period, like whatever the reason is.
0:19:36.1 EC: Yeah.
0:19:36.7 TD: I have a question on that. Humidifiers. We live in Colorado, all we hear about is Humidifiers. So I have one in every single room, I keep that thing just pumping, pumping, pumping. I mean it is like my best and biggest investment. Does that really change not affect... Change your skin?
0:19:56.6 EC: Yes.
0:19:57.9 MS: Yes. I think the Humidifiers is a great thing. I think it benefits the skin from an estheticians standpoint using the steamer in the room, which is direct humidity to the face, over time, dehydrates the skin.
0:20:13.0 TD: Is that from the heat? Or is that just from the water? The moisture hitting the skin?
0:20:18.5 MS: I think both.
0:20:18.6 EC: Mm-hmm. I think that you, like attracts like, so if there's a lot of water outside of your skin in that instance is big difference between a steamer and a humidifier in your home, that that's gonna pull it out, but it's also you're sweating out too. So you're losing those minerals. It's the same thing with a hot shower. Let's just say you take a warm shower, not a super hot shower, very similar conceptually, is because you're losing that.
0:20:46.0 TD: I have always been wondering about that. You guys just solved one of my biggest mysteries.
0:20:50.8 EC: But allowing that in the air keeps your skin softer and more pliable. It's like drying out a piece of bread, a piece of bread you can flop it around, and if you leave it out, it's like a piece of toast... Yeah, that's like your skin cells. Bunch of little pieces of bread, and you wanna keep them soft and supple. Or they become toast and then it's opportunity for...
0:21:10.1 TD: And then they're toasted.
0:21:12.0 EC: Let's talk about exfoliation and removing those skin cells.
0:21:14.4 TD: Yeah.
0:21:14.7 EC: So a lot of times, people with dry skin say that they should skip that step. They should skip exfoliation. But I feel that that is a big misconception.
0:21:22.9 MS: Definitely.
0:21:23.5 EC: You and I agree?
0:21:24.7 MS: Yes.
0:21:24.9 EC: The key is using the right exfoliation at the right frequency. It's a Goldilocks moment. Just enough. Just the right time. Because using that can help lift the dead skin cells that are just hanging out way too long. It also helps to increase blood flow, which brings nutrients and oxygen, and then it can actually then make your products more effective. So if you're adding hyaluronic acid [chuckle] or any kind of butters or oils to the skin, they're not gonna have to fight as hard to get to where they need to go. So finding the right balance is important since overexfoliating can also cause a major disruption. It's about supporting the skin's natural ability, and I think that's key. What's missing? What do we need to put in here?
0:22:07.0 TD: I have a question. Do you feel that, manual exfoliating versus chemical exfoliating, one is better than the other for people who have dry skin?
0:22:16.8 EC: I think both together, with that. And I think it's a case by case basis. I think the mechanical or the manual exfoliation will definitely help to remove the top, but... Like the top outermost skin cells in the stratum corneum, but that manual exfoliation has a host of other benefits too. It's like massaging. It'll help bring a lot of life back to the skin, especially for dull complexions. So I think that's good... But I think if you're gonna go deep... I often compare the skin to lasagna.
0:22:49.5 TD: Mmm, yummy...
0:22:50.2 EC: So we're just like rubbing that crusty cheese layer...
0:22:53.3 TD: [chuckle] Okay.
0:22:54.9 EC: So if you wanna get down to where the meat is, then you need to exfoliate to make that come up. So just the right of both.
0:23:02.5 MS: Now, listeners, we wanna hear from you. What are your thoughts on treating oily and dry skin? Do you agree with our truths and misperceptions? Share with us on social media by commenting on our Instagram or Facebook or by emailing getconnected@ASCPskincare.com. Thank you for listening to ASCP Esty Talk and for more information on this episode or for ways to connect with Ella and myself or to learn more about ASCP, check out the show notes. Stay tuned for the next episode of ASCP Esty Talk.
0:23:32.0 S1: Thanks for joining us today. If you like what you hear and you want more, subscribe. If you wanna belong to the only all inclusive Association For Estheticians, that includes professional liability insurance, education, industry insights, and an opportunity to spotlight your sick skills, join at ASCPskincare.com. Only $259 per year for all this goodness. ASCP knows it's all about you.