Ep 16 - ASCP Esty Talk: A Platform for Understanding—Inequalities in Esthetics - Part 2

JoElle Lee & Toshiana Baker

It’s time for an overdue conversation about systemic racism within the professional skin care industry. Recent events have inspired reflection on the role ASCP may have unknowingly played. As part of our reconciliation with this, we are providing our fellow estheticians and skin care experts a platform to discuss the inequalities and injustices they have experienced and explore proposed changes as it relates to the profession and the skin care clients we serve. 

Join ASCP Executive Director Tracy Donley and Ella Cressman, licensed esthetician and fellow ASCP podcaster as they engage in some incredible stories shared by JoElle Lee and Toshiana Baker about their unique journeys into to the world of beauty. Listen and even relate as they share the challenges they’ve endured and the successes they’ve achieved along the way. Both of these women are successful estheticians that just happen to be African American.  

Author Bio: 

JoElle Lee

A highly respected skin care expert, educator, and celebrity esthetician, JoElle Lee is the author of Esthetician on a Mission: Business Building Workbook and co-author of Multicultural Skin Treatments: Learn How to Effectively Treat Skin of Color Using Chemical Peels and Laser Treatments, a trusted guide for treating diverse client populations.

In addition to being featured in numerous national consumer publications and a guest on radio programs across the country, JoElle is recognized for being the former personal esthetician to First Lady Michelle Obama during her time in the White House.

JoElle specializes in no-downtime chemical peel treatments, customized corrective facial treatments, and a wide range of laser treatments for skin of color. JoElle feels there is a gap in basic esthetic training and education when it comes to treating clients of color, as well as preparing estheticians who want to have their own business.

Over the years, JoElle has helped many estheticians and small businesse owners in the industry solve complex problems and increase their bottom lines. With her straightforward, no-nonsense approach, JoElle's philosophy is to uncover learned negative beliefs or thinking that has created a barrier within your business, and then tear that wall down. She uncovers hidden assets, underperforming activities, and undervalued possibilities of your business. 

JoElle teaches effective and profitable marketing strategies and how to stand out from the competition. Many of her ideas and strategies have been implemented and resulted in not only increased profits, but a more diverse loyal clientele. 

Today, JoElle can be found conducting personalized skin care consultations, serving as keynote speaker at events, teaching classes on multicultural skin, and sharing her expertise via webinars, online courses, and social media.

Author URLs:




Toshiana Baker

Toshiana Baker has served the spa, beauty, and wellness industries internationally as an esthetician and educator for nearly 15 years. A passionate organizational leader, dynamic speaker, and bestselling author, she has held a variety of industry leadership roles, including director of esthetics for a 30-location corporate spa organization, regional account and education executive for a leading cosmetic and brow artistry brand, and global director of education for a renowned skin care, cosmetics and fragrance brand.

Applying her rich expertise as a spa and wellness expert, Toshiana founded SpaWorx in 2016, a consulting and training development agency to educate, enlighten, and empower spa, beauty, and wellness organizations, as well as support growth in their financial performance. SpaWorx has happily served a range of clients—from solo estheticians to large global beauty corporations.

In addition to her consulting agency, she volunteers as a commissioner and executive secretary for the Commission on Massage Therapy Accreditation (COMTA). She is also a contributing author and subject-matter expert for the Pivot Point International textbook for foundational esthetics curriculum.

Toshiana will excitedly open membership for the Network of Multi-Cultural Spa and Wellness Professionals (NMSWP) later this summer. NMSWP is a professional platform dedicated to “the promotion, uplift, and edification of underrepresented spa and wellness professionals across all disciplines to create a community of professionals with access to resources, education, and opportunities, while demonstrating through our work our commitment to excellence and the highest quality in our vocation.” Through this network, Toshiana envisions a community that is better equipped, aligned, and supported in furthering the mission of being well and whole while fostering global healing and wellness.

Author URLs:



00:01 Tracy Donley: Associated Skin Care Professionals, ASCP, is committed to advancing the careers of aestheticians. As a part of that mission, we want to have meaningful conversations about developing an inclusive culture of understanding and knowledge. Recent events have inspired reflection on the role ASCP may have unknowingly played in contributing to institutional and systemic racism. As a part of our reconciliation with this we are providing our fellow aestheticians and skin care experts, a platform to discuss the inequalities and injustices they have experienced and explore proposed changes as it relates to the profession and skin care clients we serve.

00:48 TD: You are listening to ASCP Esty Talk, where we share insider tips, industry resources and education for aestheticians at every stage of the journey. Let's talk 'cause ASCP knows, it's all about you.

01:04 TD: Hi there, and welcome to ASCP Esty Talk Part 2. A platform of understanding inequalities in aesthetics. I'm Tracy Donley, Executive Director of Associated Skin Care Professionals, and thank you for joining us as we continue the conversation with these two amazing aestheticians, JoElle Lee and Toshiana Baker. All right, let's just jump right into it.

01:29 JoElle Lee: When I went to DC, it was a very high-end spa that I was... Medical spa that I was going to and there was no one of color in the spa. And I found out... First of all, when I got there, none of that staff... There were 10 treatment rooms, I wanna say all together, there was about 15 spa employees. None of them were speaking to me. And then, I found out, they had created a petition and went to the owner, "We do not want her to even start working here. You told us who she's coming and all of that," and they knew what my association was and they just said, "We don't... " They assumed that more black clients would be coming. They assumed that I would be attracting that, whatever. But that's back to what goes on in the industry. So these were all aestheticians who were very strong in, "Look, this has been a white medical spa. It's gonna stay a white medical spa." They were like, "She's coming. That's it. She signed everything she's supposed to sign." She coming.

02:40 TD: Yeah.

02:42 JL: And eventually, each one ended up not being there, but one of them who gave... Probably who gave me the hardest time, I was there almost four years, really at the end, came around and became my friend. Who she just started to observe me and she even carried my products. She started selling them, she started... One came around. The others just ended leaving and we hired new people, but it was like, "If she's here, I'm out."

03:19 TD: So when they started hiring new people to replace the ones that had left, did that start to change the environment?

03:25 JL: Well [03:25] ____ there already. So they see who works there. It's not... They're deciding if they wanna work there too. So it's was a little different. They were like, "I wanna work here." And that particular place ended up carrying my line. And they said, "Do you mind?" I had a complete retail store and everything in there. So you had to use my products, sell my products. So if you couldn't embrace it, you weren't gonna work there anyway.

03:52 Toshiana Baker: And they're definitely is within teams, within organizations...

04:01 JL: Oh yes.

04:01 TB: The aestheticians... You know they... It's...

04:07 TD: Is a pack mentality, is that what you're kind of leading to?

04:10 TB: Yeah, it's kinda what I was gonna say. I would almost liken it to mean girls.

04:15 JL: Yes, no, you're on track.

04:18 TB: Means girls, kind of that gang mentality where... My career, a lot of the aestheticians that were very easily accepted...

04:29 JL: It's very [04:29] ____.

04:31 TB: They're the one's who had the European accent.

04:35 JL: Oh yes.

04:37 TB: And they were mean girls. And especially, when I was promoted to supervisory roles or training roles, they would be overtly disrespectful in trainings, just a lot...

04:54 JL: Again, I know that they did not respect what you did know.

05:00 TB: Yeah, yes.

05:00 JL: They automatically assume there was nothing she could teach them.

05:05 TB: Nothing you can teach them. And that was the case for me too, when I was Director of Aesthetics for Red Door. At the time it was 32 locations over the entire programming, products, protocols. It was about 300 aestheticians and I would go on a tour. In my first tour, I felt like it was me proving myself, proving that I was worthy of the role because they didn't feel like I could teach them anything. So they tested me. They questioned me. They tore apart my written materials. Not everyone, but some of the older veteran aestheticians of European decent, they're very set in their ways, they didn't want any new change and they certainly didn't wanna be trained by the likes of me.

05:58 TB: Yes, it's other biases. It was age. It was that I was changing different things that affected how they do business, how they earn their money. I was making protocol for certain things to enhance brand experience that they didn't like, but there are certain, what they call micro-aggressions and micro-insults, that let you know what it is for them.

06:24 TD: Okay.

06:24 TB: Things like not getting your name right, never being able to call your name properly. Some of that is that my name is not spelled how it's pronounced, some of that is the micro-aggressions and the micro-insults, some of that is showing up late intentionally, always having something more important to do when I'm there to train, some of that is...

06:45 TD: So pieces of being disrespectful in any place that they could?

06:51 TB: Yes, and things that are micro-aggressions in race, like telling you you look like or remind them of another black person they know. We all look alike. That's called a micro-aggression. It's documented in racist theory, that those micro-insults and micro-aggressions, those type things help you understand that people are not just being a jerk. There is a racial overtone associated with their disrespect.

07:16 TD: Will you share some more examples of micro-aggression?

07:21 TB: It is consistently been like, I look like another black person. I have been told I look like JoElle because we both have short hair cuts.


07:29 TD: Because you have short hair cut?

07:31 TB: Yeah man.

07:33 TD: Okay.


07:34 TB: I remind them of another black person they know. Things that people are well-meaning when they say, but it's kind of offensive, is that I'm articulate.

07:44 JL: Oh my gosh.

07:45 TB: Some people say it as a compliment. And other people say it as a micro-aggression. Because I'm black, I'm not supposed to be able to speak well, or form a proper sentence, or whatever. Micro-aggression is also things that are well-intentioned, like honey, child, and girlfriend, soul sister, touching your hair when you change it, commenting on some... "You people love to wear bright colors." Those are micro-aggressions, not always from a... Not always...

08:19 JL: Racist place.

08:21 TB: Right.

08:21 JL: I don't think they're all from a racist heart...

08:23 TB: They're not.

08:25 JL: I think it's not knowing.

08:27 TB: They're not, but those are micro-aggressions. Those are things that you can't help but notice.


08:33 JL: Well, you have formed in your mind, let's say I grew up in an all white area. I'm white, and I just know about black people by maybe what some people have told me. I've never had a relationship with one. I don't... So, I have formed in my mind whatever I think of a black person. I've made up my own idea of what that is. Whether it's, she's not gonna be that educated, there's something definitely going on with their hair that I don't understand.


09:06 TD: Wow.

09:08 JL: These bright colors, what's going on with that? What ever that you form, now, that I'm in front of you, and I'm not your picture of who I should be.

09:18 TD: Yeah, its probably like a disconnect.

09:19 JL: I'm learning how I'm gonna be saying these things, because wait a minute, you're nothing like the black person in my head.

09:26 TB: That I knew. That I thought I knew.

09:28 JL: Right? So, what is all of this? So, but it doesn't mean that I hate black people. I'm super racist. No, she is talking from a place of just, this is all that I thought it was.

09:43 TB: My college roommate thought it was a personal hygiene issue that was worth reporting me to resident's life, because I didn't wash my hair every day. And it was sincerely, I am concerned about her health and well-being because she doesn't wash her hair every day.

09:56 TD: She thought you were depressed or something?


10:00 TB: Seriously, something's wrong. Do you see what I'm saying? So, I by no means am here to say that some of the things that are ultimately classified or boil down to racist behavior are all from a malicious intent.

10:13 JL: No.

10:13 TB: You see what I'm saying? It's not. And so, as a black person, you learn to kind of evaluate whether people are being malicious, or it's just that they don't know better. It's a place of ignorance, not knowing, new exposure, new experience, new person kind of thing. And that's how you decide how you want to participate. You know what I mean? But there are some...

10:39 JL: You will know the difference.

10:41 TB: Yeah, you know the difference. It feels different.

10:45 TD: Let me ask you this question. So, for a young esthetician, young esthetician of color or African-American esthetician, who is just starting to see clients, is new to the treatment room and one of her clients shares a micro-aggression, or says something in a way that it's a micro-aggression, how... Where does that esthetician find the confidence to react to that? To correct the behavior, especially if they get a sense that it's from a, it's not from a hateful place?

11:23 JL: Again, that esthetician is going to have had that experience before. It's not going to be a total surprise to her. See, it's a surprise when she tells the manager.

11:39 TD: Oh I see. So, that's actually there.

11:41 JL: It's not a surprise to her. She's not clutching her pearls. "What were the pearls [11:47] ____?" That's what I'm trying to get it. When Tasha had the experience with that lady, she wasn't crying 'cause she was shocked that it happened, was surprised... Again, it's [12:00] ____ again, I'm not crying because I'm shocked. You know what I mean? That's not what it is. It's the idea of what she's doing that's hurting me, but I'm probably gonna deal with it how I've always dealt with it.

12:18 TD: I am so thrilled that you are being so candid and honest with your answers and sharing these stories with us and our listeners. What's some advice, or how can we better support the listeners and fellow estheticians out there? Any ideas like resources, discuss actions, or conversations? To your point, JoElle, I'm getting it.


12:46 TD: That these aren't surprises. These are not surprises. This is their life. This is not a moment that all of a sudden they're in a professional setting, and how do I deal with this? But anything that... Anything else that you guys could share with our listeners?

13:04 Ella Cressman: I also wanna say, too, that I feel like I'm just being a little quiet and a little introspective 'cause I feel like I've said things, and not intentionally, I might fall in that micro-aggression, innocent category where I'll say, "Hey girl," or something different, and I feel very eyes wide open at this point.

13:26 EC: So Tosh actually sent over a couple of different websites yesterday. I took four tests total. The one that I was surprised about was, "How privileged are you?" And I was... Let me pull it up. I was surprised at the questions, which is very introspective for me, but I am 57% privileged. So I'm quite privileged, "You had a few struggles, but overall, your life has been far easier than most. This is not a bad thing nor is it something to be ashamed of, but you should be aware of your advantages to work to help others who don't have them. Thank you for checking your privilege." And I thought, "Wow." I got goosebumps when I got it. Even just reading some of the questions, that are talking about race, but also gender, gender bias, which is coming from construction administration before the pre-Me Too movement, having been involved in that. And then, "Are your parents still together? Did they help you pay for college?" All of these very thought-provoking questions.

14:32 EC: Luckily, it says on here that I should work to help others, which is exactly what I want to be doing. The other one was the IAT, was the Implicit Association Test, and I thought that was fascinating. There was a bunch of different tests within that website. But it was an interesting thing.

14:55 TB: First, I wanna say on the whole micro-aggression, micro-insults, in a certain way, because we all have bias, we all do it. We all do it. So it's not an indictment against anyone. We all do things that are culturally or insensitive to people's individuality. We all do it. It goes back to the implicit bias. So I don't want anyone soul searching themselves and being too hard on yourself in that way. However, consciousness creates a shift, right? So first on that.

15:32 TB: Second, so like I said, I grew up in Syracuse, my mom worked in diversity inclusion affirmative action, so whether I liked it or not, I got a lot of... [laughter] I got exposed to a lot, which is why unlike my sister, I didn't wanna go into government and I didn't wanna go with politics or anything, but the reality is that this is so much woven into the fabric of who we are as Americans, that it's important for people to understand. So yes, some of it was just simply Googling because there have been a lot of supportive organizations assembling lists of resources for people who want to learn, who want to learn anti-racism.

16:20 TB: The BuzzFeed test was fascinating to me. One of my closest friends who is a news... Works for news production, had shared it with a group of us and we're all black women, and we all took the test and had different numbers of privilege. And so, that was also fascinating, that even within our group of safe space, more homogenous community or what have you, that there's even different levels of privilege and access and advantage that we even have. And that to me drives home that there is no "the black experience" you know what I mean? Just like there is no "the American experience" it's all very individual. And so, I thought that was a great one to share.

17:09 TB: The IAT is the industry standard on implicit bias. They have this non-profit organization from Harvard that this is what they do. And so, over the years, they have developed assessments from race to gender to... I mean, things that you don't even think about, right? So like you said Elle, there's a lot of different tests there. And my mom told me about that, but that's also supported in the bias course that's on the ASCP website. And so, the instructor there is a massage therapist who was explaining implicit bias and encourages each learner to go and take the IAT test, because sometimes that awareness is enough to help you pay attention to different behaviors and see them from a different lens. There's other articles and books. A lot of times when you...

18:06 TB: People have said to me that it seems like a lot of the movies and books are depressing. "It's about slavery again," kind of stuff. And I get it, yes. Me as a black person, I would love more joyful evolved stories too, but unfortunately, that is what is financed a lot. And truthfully, a lot of our current day problems with systemic racism, date back to the transatlantic slave trade, that the black American experience cannot be told without understanding slavery, people being used as a commodity, people dehumanized and seen as property for hundreds of years. And so, there are resources there to help you understand that, that as we moved out of the system of colonialism and slavery, we moved into using the criminal justice system and the incarceration programs as a new slavery, a new method of oppression and disenfranchisement for, really, strongly black men, but black people and people of color to a certain degree as well.

19:21 TB: It is a lot and it's heavy emotionally, but I feel that you should be grounded in your understanding of historical context, right? So even as it applies to beauty, a lot of what we see, misnomer or mistaught or misinformed in beauty, it's because it has origins in the European aesthetic and beauty psychology related to the European culture. However, if you take it upon yourself to learn other indigenous cultures, there has been a lot of appropriation of beauty from other cultures, including ancient African Kemet, and...

19:57 JL: Yeah Egypt.

20:00 TB: And Egypt. So there are certain traditions that if you look to study for yourself the true origin of certain thought processes, behaviors, even ingredients, rituals, a lot of them have their roots in other indigenous communities that have been then appropriated by the European and brought forth as an accepted practice. People who wanna know, the information is there, it's just not as mainstream. So you have to take it upon yourself to always look deeper, go further for yourself. For example, and this is my last point, the Fitzpatrick scale in no way shape or form...

20:42 JL: Oh!

20:44 TB: Is all there is to understand about skin of color. In fact it wasn't even designed...

20:49 JL: That was my post today.

20:50 TB: Was it? I missed it because...

20:52 JL: My whole post on social media was about the Fitzpatrick scale.

20:56 TB: Well, I missed it because I was trying to get cute for this.

21:00 JL: Well, let me tell you. There have probably been, if any of you follow me, there are hundreds of comments.

21:06 TB: Are there? I'm not surprised because...

21:08 JL: There are hundreds of comments about, I said, should we keep it? Should we modify it? Should we make a new one or get rid of it all together? And let me tell you.

21:19 TB: What are they saying?

21:21 JL: We have turned the aesthetics world upside down with that Fitzpatrick chart today.

21:25 TB: Let me tell you. It's so disheartening to have people who believe that that's all there is to know about understanding... No. Melanated skin, you know what I mean?

21:34 JL: Oh my god, I'm telling you it is huge. Everywhere I posted it, they are just so many comments. There's no way I'm gonna get to them.

21:45 TD: What do you recommend? I mean, what are you... What would you like to see, JoElle?

21:50 JL: I would like to see that there's no chart.

21:53 TD: Oh.

21:53 JL: You should be getting educated on all backgrounds, all skin tones, and how they respond to treatment and protocol, period. Now, there can be a guide as far as what happens or what could happen when you do a treatment based upon an ethnic background, but there's no comprehensive chart.

22:13 TD: Right.

22:14 JL: And I see a lot of companies...

22:15 TB: [22:15] ____ a lot of ways to get all hues.

22:18 JL: When I taught laser, you just put a Fitzpatrick number in there. You would press a button.

22:25 TD: I think that's still how it is still today.

22:26 JL: [22:26] ____ color. I'm gonna burn you. Black people come in every color on the Fitzpatrick scale. Every single color.

22:36 TB: Every shade. That's the thing, those six hues are nobody... That's like having a makeup line with six foundation colors.

22:44 JL: Yes. That's my point.

22:45 TB: But by no means does it include all... And the thing to me is that, it was... I think if you use it for what it was intended for, you keep it in it's proper place. I think what has happened in our industry is that we have come to rely upon the Fitzpatrick skin typing as it's the end all be all. And it's not. It's photo typing, in fact.

23:10 JL: But let's think about it. It's biased too. I have been places where they're teaching it on skin tone alone.

23:18 TB: Yep.

23:19 JL: And especially in aesthetics school.

23:21 TB: No, absolutely.

23:22 JL: And we are taught in aesthetics school to categorize ourselves immediately. "Well, I'm a Fitz four." "Well, I'm a Fitz one." "Well, I'm Fitz two." And then your client, "What Fitz is she?" All of that happens at the foundation, okay? And my point was, if I have a client who looks like a Fitz one, but the skin responds like a Fitz four or five, what's going on here?

23:44 TB: Yeah.

23:45 JL: But I see product companies and equipment companies who really use that chart as the guide.

23:54 TB: Yep.

23:55 JL: And that's the problem I have.

23:57 TB: It's dangerous.

23:58 JL: If I deal with everyone else is same because I worked at the laser center and they were burning people. Just not knowing, because I can be Italian and respond badly. I don't have to be black. Okay, so my thing is, if they go, "Well, she looks like a Fitz one." Or, "She looks like a Fitz two." All of that. And so I just think the chart should go away. I think either you have a new chart completely that is more comprehensive, or why can't we get the education that we need? Because the future is going to be people of color. I've got news for the industry, and it's not just gonna be black, Hispanic, Asian. You're gonna have a tremendous amount of people that are of mixed race. That is the future. And if you are not getting the right education and information regarding that, you are out of touch with your aesthetics career. If you see yourself doing this 10, 20 more years, somebody of color is walking through your door. I don't care where you are.

25:05 TD: How do we get the change made? I mean, we are the association, right? We're Associated Skin Care Professionals.

25:12 JL: Okay, Tracy, then it's on you.


25:13 TD: No, I need your help. That's why you're on the... That's why you're on the call here.

25:20 JL: This is your to-do list. This is what to do.

25:23 TB: First of all, it's multi-layered. Product companies have to stop going after the black and brown dollar, and doing whatever it takes in their marketing campaigns to keep a black and brown customer. And instead, hire and create a pipeline of talent, development for people of color to work in these companies. Because a majority of these companies, even when they are selling products, even if they're products are marketed to only people of color...

25:57 JL: It doesn't need [25:57] ____...

26:00 TB: Their executive and their leadership team do not reflect...

26:01 JL: Yes.

26:02 TB: The population they're selling to. So first and foremost, they have to get serious about their commitment to diversity inclusion by creating opportunities, talent development, pipelines to do it. Because my experience in the corporate cosmetics global... When I was global education manager, a lot of the young women that came through the marketing team that were marketing these products had gotten there through an internship because their father played golf with the chairman, or was friends with the chairman. And they came in as summer interns. Next thing you know, they were coordinators. And then they worked their way up. And they were promoted consistently. Some of them promoted faster, even then I... Over and above myself. You know what I mean? Because they used nepotism, or who they knew in a network. And there's always been that.

26:54 TB: Well, companies are gonna have to get uncomfortable and figure out how to get out there to recruit those underrepresented professionals. They are out there, talented people who are capable, your chemists, your formulators, your educators, your marketers, your finance people. All of that needs to be represented on the corporate side.

27:15 TB: And then, companies have to start providing and respecting the license professional of all cultural origins and ethnic groups, and provide educations to empower them, not just to empower them to capture, again, the black and brown dollar, but truly give them an understanding and empower them to have a true ability to navigate the complexities of mixed race, and different ethnic groups, and different geographical exposures, and all of those things as they impact the skin. It's multiplied. Your associations have to make sure that they have the finger on the pulse of providing the resources that match what the demographic is, but not just demographic in age, and race, and level of education, but the psycho-graphics. What makes people buy? What makes people feel beautiful? All of the psychology behind consumer behavior.

28:20 TB: So, I think the associations have a responsibility to teach that as well, because we know there is but so much that can be put into a basic aesthetic curriculum or massage curriculum. And there's a gap between what people get in order to be licensed, versus what they really truly need to be equipped with to be, to survive in a career.

28:41 TD: Absolutely. And I think every single person could agree with that, that there's definitely gaps. And that it's very difficult as a new aesthetician licensed professional to think that you could go into practice on your own without having continuing education from your peers or from where you decide to hang your shingle, basically.

29:08 TB: And you know what else? We gotta stop giving continuing education opportunities to the same old folk. Your trade show presenters, your instructors, some of those people are the people perpetuating the same misinformation.

29:22 JL: Wait, Tosh, again, I wanna be clear with that, too. Same education, same vendors. Okay. Everything's the same because they really believe there is not a demand for diversity there. Your presenters are your vendors.

29:44 TB: Yeah, they are.

29:45 EC: And that's also the free education, too, that a lot of the...

29:48 JL: Yes. Education is based on you buying their product.

29:54 EC: But then, there's two tracks at a lot of these trade shows. You have the paid education, and then you have that people take the advance that potentially have CEUs in the states that require that, or you have the free education. And a lot of people, I was... I went from aesthetic school, the sub-par aesthetic school, to running my own business. And so, I looked to these trade shows where I could get this free education, a lot, 19 birds with one stone. And so, I did go to a lot of brand classes to understand it.

30:26 TD: But to Tosh's... But though, I think though to Tosh's point, I think what one of the things she's getting at, it's not just the trade shows, it's even our association, right? If you look at some of the presenters that we have had there, some of the presenters that have always been at the trade shows. So, we don't even have that...

30:46 JL: It's the same people all the time.

30:47 TD: Yeah. So, we don't even have the excuse that, "Oh well, we have to support the vendors." Right? 'Cause we don't have vendors. So, I think it's eye-opening. And I'm taking it in exactly what both of you are saying. And I think it's just digging a little deeper, and maybe not always going for the easy.

31:10 JL: Going comfort. Going on the comfort route.

31:12 TD: Or easy to find, right? That's the thing. Someone's not coming to me saying, "Hey, I've got some great education." Then I'm not out... We just need to do a better job digging deeper, I think.

31:26 JL: It was only one show that wanted my info. And that was Face and Body. Why do you think I was leaving my house every two weeks on a plane to get a message out? Every two weeks on a plane so I could get my message out. And it wasn't until I built my own momentum where people were like, "Oh, you think you could share that?"

31:47 TB: Me neither. It wasn't until I've created my own platform...

31:52 JL: You have to.

31:52 TB: And gone after my own business that I have been able to be seen in a different light, but still not on those same stages and in those same places. And one of my experiences that I was invited to speak and wasn't offered anything, and found out through a white counterpart that her expenses were paid and she was offered an honorarium.

32:12 JL: Yeah.

32:14 TB: So, here's the thing, sometimes who you support in making money shows what you're really about.

32:21 TD: I think it always does. Doesn't it?

32:23 TB: Well, I was trying not to go extreme as it always, but follow the money. Who are you willing to pay? Who are you willing to tell other people to buy with? It's gotta... We have to switch up that narrative that is those same folks, because some of what... But let me be clear, I've worked for some of these same vendors. I've been hired by some of these, so I'm not saying we're shirking our responsibility to earn a living, but if we're truly trying to create change, everyone, not just certains of us, need to make ourselves a little uncomfortable with the mindset of creating a different environment, or landscape for people who are truly eager to know more and learn more.

33:20 TD: Well, I say to everybody who... I hope everybody is listening to this, as many people, as many aestheticians out there, please, I have an open door, an open email, please send me any of your suggestions for continuing education all day, every day. I want as much as possible. And you know my email address, it's tdonley@ascpskincare.com, so please help me help you guys.

33:52 EC: Tracy, I really appreciate you being so proactive, but also being willing to get uncomfortable into pushing this conversation, I feel... This has been super helpful. I can't wait for future conversations, I wanna also thank JoElle and Tosh for being vulnerable, and for being brave, and for helping in this as well, and I just wanna say all three of you guys are someone I hold with such esteem and I love you and support you. And I'm really looking forward to having the next conversation.

34:28 TD: Yeah, I second what Ella said, just the grace and how you guys spoke today and the candor, I appreciate it so much and I too, look forward to more conversations, and we're gonna make sure that as much detail as possible is in the show notes, so please, there'll be tons of links in there. Before we do wrap up though, JoElle, I wanna give you and Tosh some final words. And also too, if you wanna just give a shout-out to, if people wanna reach out to you, or your social media channels or your websites, where can they find you? Let's start with JoElle.

35:10 JL: Well, to contact me, you can go to joellelee.com, everything is at joellelee.com. On all the social media platforms, you can just enter JoElle Lee, I believe for an Instagram, it's JoElle Lee Esthetics Training. Also have a Facebook group, that's JoElle Lee Advanced Esthetics Training and Classes, if you'd like to join that group. This has been an awesome conversation, this is my first time talking about it with my peers and others in the industry, so I just wanna thank you again for having me on as a guest. I look forward to more conversations with you both, and I took a lot away from this conversation as well.

36:00 JL: I just want us all to be thinking about what we can do and how can we include us all, but most importantly, I still know that this is a difficult time for all of us. So I really want aestheticians to stay strong, I want them to stay encouraged, safe, healthy and if you can, by all means, try to stay happy.

36:26 TD: Oh, I love that. Thank you JoElle, thank you so much. And Tosh, turn it over to you.

36:31 TB: Gosh JoElle, I really felt like that was Jerry Springer's amazing final thoughts like...


36:37 TD: Oh my gosh, she's way prettier than Jerry Springer.

36:42 TB: Jerry Springer, right.

[overlapping conversation]

36:44 JL: Is that the person to be who I remind you of right now?

36:52 TB: I was just saying it was a great benediction. I happen to love Jerry Springer's final thoughts, but I understand he's not as esteemed as some people.

37:00 JL: I don't seem biased in a any way. I don't wanna seem biased for judging.

37:08 TB: No I meant that, actually in the highest of compliments JoElle. It felt like, "Wow, we really should have ended on that note, honestly."


37:16 JL: We can always edit it, trust me.

37:20 TB: Right? Can you imburse us because...


37:24 TD: We'll see.

37:26 JL: Welcome to show business.

37:28 TB: It's an honor, and I am so grateful for the opportunity to just commune with all of you, each of you. Every time I have encounters with each of you, Ella and Tracy, I'm left feeling like there's a new perspective on things. And like I said, JoElle, I have followed you and been a fan of yours for so long, it just feels so amazing to share space with you, and to be very supportive of all that you're doing, so I really think... And I want to encourage any and every esthetician out there that it's not ever about competition, it's about collaboration, and so I'm just grateful. And the reason that this is so meaningful is because I think these are a lot of the conversations that we have reserved to have with people like ourselves, where we can kind of let our hair down and have a little bit more of a relaxed demeanor, or what have you, it's not as uncomfortable when you're with people like yourselves, but what we fail to understand is that sometimes you don't know what you don't know. It never occurred to me that my white friends don't know what it's like to have a sense of anxiety and panic come over you when you get pulled over by a cop. It didn't occur to me that they don't feel that. I thought everybody felt that, you know what I mean? So this was so worthwhile.

38:53 TB: If anyone would like to reach out to me, my website is www.toshiana.com, and it's spelled T like Tom, O-S-H-I-A-N like Nancy A. And all that I do and all the work, the different brands that I have under my kind of business umbrella, are all listed there on my website, and if there are any spa professionals, aestheticians that are interested in an additional resource, I will be launching the network of multi-cultural spa and wellness professionals which is more all-inclusive and encompassing of all spa and wellness professionals from different ethnic origins and backgrounds to be able to have a platform to provide education development and edification of us as under-represented professionals. If you're interested in that at all, you can go to www.nmswp. It stands for Network of Multi-cultural Spa and Wellness Professionals.com, and you can feel free to enroll there for our founding membership that will be opening in August.

40:04 TB: But I just am so grateful to share this space with you guys, and I encourage everyone like JoElle said, to find your happiness, and take care of yourselves, and maintain your balance because we are the healers, and we are the facilitators, and we are the space holders for people, and you have to learn to give yourself grace in all of this. This is a very, very difficult time that we're in, but we're people that can help people feel better to approach what comes at them in their daily life, so that's a gift. It's still a gift and an honor to do what we do, so thank you guys.

40:45 TD: I just wanna say with so much love and admiration for all of you. Thank you so, so, so much. I wish you guys could see my face right now because I am just filled up. So thank you.


41:01 TD: Thanks for joining us today. If you like what you hear and you want more, subscribe. If you wanna belong to the only all inclusive Association for aestheticians that includes professional liability insurance, education, industry insights and an opportunity to spotlight your sick skills, join at ascpskincare.com. Only $259 per year for all this goodness. ASCP knows it's all about you.

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