Ep 305 – Overcoming Consultation Roadblocks

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0:01:40.3 Ella Cressman: Hello and welcome to ASCP Esty Talk. I am Ella Cressman, licensed esthetician, certified organic skincare formulator and content contributor for Associated Skincare professionals.

0:01:50.4 Maggie Stasik: I am Maggie Stasik, licensed esthetician and ASCP's program director.

0:01:55.4 EC: I love today's topic.

0:01:57.5 MS: I'm excited for it.

0:01:58.8 EC: Yes, I can't wait. I feel like sometimes with some clients you feel Groundhog Day. You know what I'm talking about.

0:02:06.5 MS: I a hundred percent know what you mean. Yes.

0:02:08.1 EC: There are some things that clients will come to you with in a consultation that is like, if I could roll my eyes I would. And I don't mean that disrespectfully to clients. I mean deep breath in, breathe out because we've heard this before. So one thing, for example, you know when you're in a consultation and you're asking them, all of this is information that we gather so that we can understand first of all, what's going on with their skin and what approach are we going to take? We're not judging, we are just gathering information. So we ask, how much water you drink? Obviously we want to understand if you're dry or maybe even oily, what could be a culprit? Or is it your moisturizer? I mean, that's a pretty important question. But I love it when the clients are like a lot. Like a lot. Okay, how much is a lot. A lot. Like at least 16 ounces a day. Have you gotten that before?

0:03:05.9 MS: Oh, yes, I have, and it kills me. And to your point, everyone's perceptions of a lot are different.

0:03:11.7 EC: Or they're lying. Have, you've busted people lying before, too? They're like, well, yeah, a lot. Like a gallon.

0:03:19.2 MS: And you know what this makes me think of is when you go to the doctor, it's hard not to feel like you're being judged. They're simply collecting information, like, how much exercise are you getting in a week? Or how many glasses of alcohol are you drinking in a week? And I'm sitting there with a bead of sweat going down my forehead.

0:03:42.4 EC: What's the right amount? One?

0:03:45.8 MS: Exactly. I run five miles every day and I don't drink anything. Define exercise. Like tying my shoes? Exactly. Totally.

0:03:56.7 EC: And we can maybe have a little empathy for our medical professionals now because we're like, oh, you don't really care what I'm doing. Totally. I agree with you. How about this other one? How often do you wear sunscreen? Like, you see it written? And their answer is, whenever I'm outside. Great. That's great. Or how about, what's your skincare routine? And they're like, I only use natural products because I'm sensitive. Ugh. Anyway, sometimes all of these makes me want to scream because they understand those are misunderstandings or misconceptions. So I thought today, hey, let's examine some of these myths or ideas or roadblocks, if you will, and get down to business. Let's talk through some talking points. Not to embarrass a new client because you never want to come across like a finger wagger, but to help explain, first of all, why I'm asking and why it's important or relevant. So we all know drinking water is essential for overall health, including the health of our skin. But does it clear it? That's something that's being talked about right now. How water affects your skin. Water maintains skin hydration from the inside out, which is really important.

0:05:12.7 EC: It's also important for maintaining balance in your body. Every single skin cell, nerve cell, bone cell, brain cell, they need this to function. Think of it as, every time you go to the hospital for anything, what's the very first thing that happens?

0:05:29.7 MS: They take your vitals.

0:05:31.4 EC: What's the second thing that happens? They're like, okay, you're here for a fever. We're going to take your vitals, and then we're going to put in an IV. You were here, you broke your arm. We're going to take your vitals, and then we're going to give you an IV. Right?

0:05:47.0 MS: Right.

0:05:47.6 EC: It's important because all of those healing processes require hydration. Hydration is communication. Hydration is function, all of that. It is important in skincare, especially because where we live or any other area, you're prone to dehydration. Dehydrated skin can look dull, can feel tight, and it can show fine lines more prominently. So drinking water is important because it helps keep your skin hydrated from the inside out. And then it helps to designate how much hydration we have to put on from the outside for in. Right?

0:06:24.3 MS: Yes, a hundred percent. I'm with you.

0:06:26.1 EC: It also helps to support proper circulation. This is another point you could talk through with your clients. It helps blood flow, and blood flow brings nutrients, and nutrients means the skin can have a healthy, glowing appearance. So it's very essential for repair and renewal, which is supportive of a lot of the treatments that we provide. So speaking to your clients about 16 ounces is good. But you know what's better? You're going to need more water because we're going to give you a chemical peel or laser resurfacing or fill in the blank. Even microneedling, all of these are important. You have to up that just a little bit for the next X amount of weeks. Again, not with a finger wagging.

0:07:09.5 MS: I think also when you have that client that says they're concerned about aging skin and you touched on this a little bit, dehydrated skin is showing those fine lines and wrinkles more. So hydrating from the inside out, you're going to see less of that. The skin's going to be brighter, those fine lines are going to be less visible. You maybe have less flaking. And so, addressing all of the goals for clear skin, glowing skin, youthful skin starts with hydration.

0:07:38.5 EC: Absolutely. Even for conditions like acne might not be something we always think of, but acne to me signals imbalance. And if we're dehydrated internally, that is a surefire way to have imbalance. So it's very important, of course, for overall health. But for acne specifically, dehydration can influence it by encouraging hormonal fluctuations. If the body doesn't feel like it has everything it needs, then you can have adrenal hormones kick in and trigger maybe overproduction of oil. And overproduction of oil can lead to clogged pores and breakouts. Also, bacterial activity when you're dehydrated and imbalanced, that activity kicks up and things like C acnes are overpopulated and you get inflammation and more blemishes. Another thing, a contributor to acne, for example, is dead skin cells. And so with slowed hydration, slows the process, the natural desquamation. And then we have excess skin cells that plus the excess sebum and debris, all those, boom, perfect environment, voila, pimple. And then of course, we know diet and lifestyle all play into it. So if you're not drinking enough water, perhaps other lifestyle choices are falling behind too. So I know for me, when I used to go to the gym often, don't tell my doctor, Maggie.

0:09:04.0 EC: When I used to go to the gym a lot, I found that I drank more water, especially if I went in the morning, because it's established. And when I don't go, I'm not drinking as much. What about... You're always lugging around a big old water jug.

0:09:17.2 MS: Thank you for noticing, Ella.

0:09:18.6 EC: And they're beautiful. They're always so pretty and girly.

0:09:23.2 MS: Thank you. You've got your water too.

0:09:25.4 EC: It's about half the size of yours, but that's okay.

0:09:27.2 MS: Well, it doesn't mean I'm drinking all of this.

0:09:30.6 EC: I'm reminded of a story when I was in Utah recently and we were doing this presentation and I look out and nearly everybody had one of those Stanley cups, full 40 ounces of water. So here's the thing. The verdict is drinking water is essential for healthy skin. It's not necessarily a miracle solution for clearing acne and other conditions, but it really helps balance things out. So when your clients are coming in and saying, I drink a whole lot, but their skin is telling a different story, or if they're saying, I drink a whole lot and it's really not that much, just having the conversation helps to understand that it's really important to have this external skincare routine to remind them that there is an influence on diet, stress, and then also hydration for their skin health.

0:10:19.3 MS: Fair enough. Yeah.

0:10:20.3 EC: Okay, how about this one? I only use natural skin care. What do you think when I say that? What are your initial thoughts there?

0:10:28.3 MS: What is natural?

0:10:29.9 EC: I know. Fair? Poison ivy is natural.

0:10:32.8 MS: Yeah.

0:10:33.6 EC: And so I feel like this is a really cautious situation because obviously they have rooted beliefs that, or a rooted definition, shall we, of what natural skincare is. But what is it and why isn't it always better? First of all, let's talk about natural ingredients that can be irritating. Essential oils, well intended, but sometimes lavender, peppermint, or some citrus oils can cause irritation, redness or even allergic reactions, especially for sensitive skin types. So if you have a natural product, where are you getting it from? How are you defining it? Is it something you're making at home? Is it something that you're buying from a store? Is it truly natural? Also plant extracts. So some botanical extracts, while natural, like poison ivy, can be sensitizing. Think of tea tree oil for example. And then also fragrances. We have so moved away from fragrance or perfume and substituted for natural fragrance like derived from plants. But there still could be potential for skin inflammation. So it's not always natural is better. There are some synthetic or lab created ingredients that have the benefit or are a evolution of these natural components, but they have minimized the sensitizing effect.

0:12:02.7 EC: So let me ask you, when you think of natural versus some of these lab creations, would you opt for the technological version?

0:12:11.8 MS: If you're asking me if I would opt for natural versus lab created, not necessarily. And I think this is where the consumer has misunderstanding. I think there's a lot of marketing around the term sensitive or reactive skin. And the same goes for natural. And oftentimes a client comes in and says what you have said, I use natural because I am sensitive, or I use natural because it's better. But there's a lot of misunderstanding about what we've just been talking about what is natural. And there's a lot of misunderstanding about what is sensitive skin. Why does the client think they're sensitive? What is happening to cause 'sensitivity' in the client's skin? And it could very well not be sensitive skin. It could be that maybe they are having an allergic reaction, which I guess technically is sensitive skin, but they're having an allergic reaction or maybe they're having eczema, or maybe it's a hormonal problem. So really getting to the root with your client about what are all these things to you? What is the experience that you're having on your skin that's leading you to believe you need this thing? And then also lab created products, what is the misconception in their mind that this is a bad thing?

0:13:30.9 EC: Right. Absolutely. I think because we are conditioned to think that it's fake or it's some down the line gonna be harmful. But truly, if we think of even pharmaceuticals, they also have a natural origin. It's just been refined now for a specific purpose with a specific dose. So that's the way I like to think of lab created, including like plant exosomes or plant stem cells. Natural origin was just a little modern day twist. I love what you said though. Absolutely. Are they sensitive or are they sensitized? And why is it natural better for them? What is their perception?

0:14:11.4 EC: Hold that thought. We'll be right back.

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0:14:58.2 EC: Okay, here we go. Let's get back to the podcast. How about these DIY remedies with natural sources, natural resources like lemon juice or lemon juice with baking soda or lemon juice with baking soda and apple cider vinegar? Like sometimes you'll see, especially on TikTok, this came back. Apple cider vinegar as a toner or baking soda as like a mechanical exfoliation or even lemon juice to brighten the skin.

0:15:29.5 MS: This is really interesting to me because I'm not familiar with these as a DIY for the skin. Certainly I've heard about mixing up something like a baking soda toner if you will, to 'adjust the pH of your skin' like post peel. But beyond that, applying a lemon juice or an apple cider vinegar, attempting to brighten the skin with such things, I feel like I have never heard that in my life.

0:15:56.4 EC: These are like old wives tale, like put a little bit of this and a little bit of that and they're probably passed down for generations. And if we look at this, this is the birth of modern skincare as we know it. Lemon juice, citrus acid and AHA. Okay, makes sense.

0:16:11.2 MS: Now I will say I have heard of like whipping up your own mask or your own exfoliant, like crushing the strawberries and applying it to the skin or whatever the heck. Don't do this.

0:16:20.8 EC: Tell them the story.

0:16:21.7 MS: Don't do this.

0:16:22.4 EC: Tell them.

0:16:23.0 MS: I have known somebody who did this thinking that this is going to be some sort of gentle enzyme to the skin and actually they gave themselves a very deep chemical peel.

0:16:33.4 EC: Because they left it on.

0:16:34.0 MS: They did.

0:16:35.0 EC: They left it on too long.

0:16:36.1 MS: Yeah.

0:16:36.4 EC: They might not be named Maggie. I'm just kidding.

0:16:38.9 MS: It wasn't me, people. I know better.

0:16:40.8 EC: But therein lies the point. Is that, yes, there are these elements. I'm guilty of using Aperol cider vinegar for certain things because I have those roots and I'm like, let's try it. Let's see if it works. It did. But these natural origins, the practice has been refined. And so there's a few things to consider with these DIY is what else is, what else are you using together? Are these supposed to be used together? How long do you leave it on the skin? Or if you're using it from a manufacturer, there's certain tests that they've had to go through first. So if you're using a lemon, let's just say cut it in half and rub it on your elbow, that's one of those old wives tales that'll help brighten the skin. Yeah, probably. But what about if the lemon is rancid or a little too old or if it's not organic? And how does that influence? So just something to keep in mind. I'm not saying that we should nix the DIY, but if a client's coming to me, I had a client who was making their own moisturizer, and if they're coming to me, I'm going to speak to this.

0:17:40.8 EC: Hey, there's some things that, there's some reasons why you might not want to do this at home. I get it, I understand. But it might interrupt what we're going to do in here. So for that, I'm not comfortable moving forward. Or can you just continue doing that for a couple months and then hope they forget about it? One thing to consider too with these natural products is stability and shelf life, especially when doing the DIY. These natural products oftentimes lack preservatives that will have an effect on the shelf life. And if that's the case, like I got something from, I don't even know if I should say the grocery store, but let's just call it the grocery store. It was a natural grocery store. It was a body lotion. Like, oh, I'm so excited. I love this. Went home, used it. And a couple, about a month in, there was this black dots all around the pump because it was this natural product. Fair enough, like it happens. Cool. Not really, but because it was such a large batch and it was devoid of a lot of preservatives and I imagine maybe it got humidity in there for some reason.

0:18:41.8 EC: But no, thanks, that's good. I like my lotion white, creamy, no black stuff in it. So these natural products, just consider that if they're poorly preserved, well intended as they are, they're gonna pass potentially some of their stability testing. But there's an opportunity for maybe shorter shelf life to smaller products. And that brings me back to these synthetic ingredients that are often more effective. You can't mimic this with this DIY or these natural things, but they help the natural processes. I mentioned stem cells, I mentioned exosomes, but also peptides. These are lab engineered and they encourage cell signaling or retinoids. Of course we have natural derivatives. But the topical that are most effective, clinically proven to have a function like boost collagen or reduce the consequences of acne, these are going to be synthetic or lab created and then even ceramides. So ceramides that you apply topically, they are synthetic, but they're meant to mimic the natural lipids and in mimicking, hopefully inspiring the natural moisture factor.

0:19:50.0 EC: All right, so on that speaking of lipids, here's another one. I don't use a moisturizer because I have oily skin. Have you heard that one?

0:19:58.0 MS: Yes. And that makes me insane.

0:20:01.0 EC: So crazy. Let's talk about it. So even if your skin produces excess oil, it still needs hydration. So water and oil mix. Here's why. Oil versus hydration. Oil is not the same. Hydration is the water content in your skin. And as we said before, this is essential for maintaining a healthy barrier. If your barrier is compromised, it could signal produce more oil. So when you're thinking of a moisturizer for the skin, here's some points, and it's especially effective when you're talking to this with your clients. Maggie, what type of moisturizers do you usually recommend for oily skin?

0:20:44.3 MS: That's a really good question. And all moisturizers that I'm recommending are creamy. I'm just going to put that out there. But they could be water based, they could be oil based depending on my client's skin type. So for somebody who is more oily, I'm looking for a water based moisturizer. It's still providing that hydration and still putting water or 'moisture' into the skin. But for my more dry clients, I'm looking for something that's oil based, has more of that barrier protection or occlusive nature to it.

0:21:16.5 EC: I think that's perfect answer. And it's going to depend on the client because why is your skin oily is the goal of the practitioner to decipher through the entire consultation. So if when a client is telling you I don't use moisturizer because I have oily skin. Let's find out why you have oily skin. Let's address your perception of an oily product and go with that. So lightweight is a good option. You mentioned the water based. And then also things like hyaluronic acid or sodium hyaluronate or even types of squalling are going to be helpful because it's going to give the perception, the sensory perception of not having anything heavy. So they're not thinking it's clogging or contributing to the oiliness, but it's nourishing the skin, all of those. Because like you said, a moisturizer for the skin must help protect the barrier. A well moisturized skin barrier is better equipped to fight off assailants that are going to come in and try to bring bacteria, inflammation all those things. So the bottom line is oily skin needs moisturizer just like any other skin type. How about this one? I only wear, this is my favorite.

0:22:31.3 EC: How often do you wear facial sunscreen? Only when I'm outdoors. Do you hear this one?

0:22:35.8 MS: I have heard this one. Yeah. This one cracks me up.

0:22:38.3 EC: It's interesting because I asked, when are you outdoors? Like, did you get in the car to get here? Did you go from your house to the car? You know what's going on? But we, I think as an industry, we are conditioned. Obviously, it's a huge part of routines and such. But let's talk about why. So we have the UVA rays. These are the ones that are contributing to aging. This is the one that cause wrinkles, fine lines. These pass through glass. So even if you're sitting by a window in your home, in your office, in your car, your skin is still exposed to these rays, even if you're inside. UVB rays. These are mostly responsible for sunburn. So glass will block them, but you're still exposed to UV and heat. And that can breed inflammation. A new one that we have are blue light exposure. So blue light is the computer, is the phone, is a tablet, is all of these things. It's not the same as LED blue light. This is specific blue light. So it's shown to help encourage free radicals, which is opposite of what we want to happen, and also contribute to degradation of cells.

0:23:46.8 MS: So degrading of cells. It's something they first notice in the eyes, the eye strain or ocular degradation in people who are staring at screens too much. But the very same thing happens to our skin cells. So what we've seen now is a lot of sunscreens that have this HEV, or high energy visible light blocking component. Look for that or talk to your client. It's a really easy sell if you have this type of product and you have a client who sits in front of the computer all day, oh, you need this. And there's compliance. It's fantastic. And then, of course, artificial lighting. So certain artificial lighting, like overhead lights, for example, fluorescent, even some LED can emit small amounts of this UV radiation. So not necessarily if you're under an LED light therapeutically, but if you're under an LED light for 10 plus hours a day, this could really have an accumulative effect and could be damaging. So very important, very, very important. You must wear sunscreen if you're near windows, if you're around reflective surfaces, if you spent hours in front of screens, and if you have skin conditions that are sensitive to UV light.

0:25:01.3 EC: Is this something you thought of before because you're in an office building with overhead lights in front of screens a lot. What do you think?

0:25:09.8 MS: It is just my MO that I'm putting sunscreen on every day. I have always been that way. It's part of my routine, but I'm not considering my eyes. I will tell you though, since the day I was born, I have always wanted glasses.

0:25:24.6 EC: So do you have the blue light glasses?

0:25:28.2 MS: No, but this gives me reason to get them.

0:25:30.5 EC: I can't wait. You have to post a picture.

0:25:32.6 MS: Yeah.

0:25:33.1 EC: Have to post a picture. Yeah, absolutely. I noticed when I was sitting in front of the computer a lot, I did a lot of educational content when we were on lockdown for COVID and I had such bad eye strain, like my eyes would weep even.

0:25:46.1 MS: Oh, my goodness.

0:25:46.8 EC: Until I got the blue light blocker. So now I have, well, I'm of that age. It happens where you have to have glasses on when you're working in front of a computer and all of them have the blue light blockers and there's a lot less eye strain. I do have one pair that I wear and that don't have it. And I get headaches and I don't know, very, I'm so sensitive.

0:26:05.8 MS: So you felt like it made a difference?

0:26:07.3 EC: It made a difference, absolutely. So those are all hopefully very helpful ways that you can talk to your clients. But listeners, we really want to hear from you. What are some myths or roadblocks that you encounter in a consultation? Reach out via Instagram, Facebook, or send us an email @getconnectedascpskincare.com we want to know all the details. In the meantime, thank you for listening to ASCP Esty Talk. For more information on this episode, or for ways to connect with Maggie or myself, or to learn more about ASCP, check out the show notes and stay tuned for the next episode of ASCP Esty Talk.