Lisa Rossmann gets candid about what it looks like to start opening locations around the country. What are the big franchisers doing to entice clients and ensure their safety? Are clients stacking the books or barely trickling in? If you are trying to decide if the time is right for you and what precautions you may want to consider, then this podcast is a must-listen.
Lisa Rossmann currently serves as the Assistant Vice President of Brand Experience at Hand & Stone Franchise Corporation, which employs nearly 2,700 estheticians across 460 locations in the US and Canada. Lisa has been a licensed esthetician since 2010, completing her course work at the Aveda Institute in New York City. Lisa has worked for Hand & Stone since 2012, starting in general spa operations support when the chain had just shy of 60 locations. She has since turned her focus to expanding the skin care program, and now oversees the growth of the massage segment as well. Lisa is truly fulfilled by Hand & Stone’s mission to provide high-quality and affordable massage and facial services to all as part of their regular lifestyle, not just as a treat to themselves!
00:00 Speaker 1: You are listening to ASCP Etsy Talk, where we share insider tips, industry resources, and education for estheticians at every stage of the journey. Let's talk 'cause ASCP knows it's all about you.
00:16 Ella Cressman: Hello and welcome to ASCP's Etsy Talk: Ingredient Decked Out, where we explore the fascinating world of ingredients and how they work within the skin. I'm Ella Cressman, licensed aesthetician, owner of Ella Cress Skin Care, and the HHP Collective, as well as a self-proclaimed ingredient junky. And today, I'm super excited because we're gonna talk about something that I'm very passionate about and something we've been hearing a lot more about, and that is adaptogens. And even more excited to share this conversation with the incredibly knowledgeable, accomplished, and eloquent Dr. Jenelle Kim, who is the founder and lead formulator of JBK Wellness Labs. Dr. Kim is a doctor of acupuncture and Chinese medicine, and is carrying on the medical knowledge and wisdom of her lineage, which is rooted into the teachings of Dr Heo Jun? Heo Jun?
01:10 Dr. Jenelle Kim: Heo Jun. Exactly.
01:11 EC: Heo Jun. Awesome. Who was a royal doctor of the great Joseon Dynasty. Something that's really, I think, awesome is that Dr. Kim is the first female in her lineage to hold the treasury of her family's proprietary Bi Bong formulas. And I can't wait to hear more about those. Those formulas have been passed down for centuries, and now is the first... Jenelle is the first to share them on such a large scale. Welcome, Dr. Jenelle Kim, thank you so much for being here.
01:41 DK: Oh, thank you, Ella, it's so wonderful to be here with you and with everyone joining us today.
01:48 EC: So I know you've been in the beauty industry and personal care industry for over 15 years. And you have formulated some of the first "all-natural... " And I'm gonna use it for people who can't see I'm using air quotes, "all-natural" products carried in high-end spas across the world, including Ritz-Carlton, Four Seasons, Mandarin Oriental, and even in The Natural Marketplace stores like Whole Foods, Sprouts, and so on. We've seen this movement towards natural products, it's based on consumer demand, and I love this movement, particularly. I think, previously, in the world of functional aesthetics, we thought the only way to treat skin conditions was to burn it and turn it and induce inflammation in an uncontrolled environment. But what we're learning now is the use of natural components help the skin function naturally. And as we see, we know that adaptogens aren't a new thing, maybe we don't know that adaptogens aren't such a new thing. But I would love to ask you the question, Jenelle, what is an adaptogen?
02:50 DK: Okay. An adaptogen is an herbal ingredient, right? So a plant, an herbal ingredient that helps your body basically create... Reach homeostasis or balance. So it specifically will help to regulate, for example, the adrenal system, endocrine system, right? And really help to boost immune system. So it has a... The main principle that I always like to think is that balancing effect, which is the most important thing.
03:14 EC: It is, and is very important to put things into balance because out of balance equals dysfunction. And we can see that with rosacea, even with acne, on aging, aging's all out of balance. And now you have completed extensive training, you have all these accreditations, and for you, just like in aesthetics, learning never stops. You have trained with some of the most respected doctors in the field of oriental medicine. So you are the perfect person to discuss this myth. Tell me what is the Bi Bong formulas that are... Bi Bong, am I saying that correctly?
03:47 DK: Yes, that's exactly right. So I know it sounds... It rolls on our tongue a bit, or maybe not.
03:51 EC: It's fun to say. Bi Bong. [laughter]
03:53 DK: You're right. I've heard that before. Bi Bong is translated in the Korean language as secret formulas, which sounds very mysterious in our culture, right? So hopefully, we're making that a little less mysterious, or maybe we like it mysterious. But, ultimately, in East Asia, it is pretty commonly known, just in the culture, that particularly in the world of herbology, herbal medicine, there are certain formulas been passed down in certain lineages that basically stand the test of time. And so our Bi Bong formulas are my lineage's formulas, herbal formulations. I am grateful enough to have formulas that range for skin care, for digestion, for muscle and joint health. But skin care is actually the very reason why I decided that this is the first time in history we will ever let them out to the public in such a way. Because we would... As I grew up, we would create these formulas for so many different doctors who would come to my family, right? To my lineage. And they'd ask us... For example, in the dermatology world, there's an amazing dermatologist who said, "Can you help with troubled skin?" We said, "Okay, sure." We put our extract in a bottle. We sent it to her. She started doing case studies and other studies and came back to us. And finally, this is not the first time we heard that she said, "You have to bring these out to the public. It's amazing what they're doing."
05:09 DK: And that is actually how I began this understanding or idea of creating formulas to bring to the public versus being in-clinic 'cause that was my ultimate wish, studying to become a doctor, to have patients in clinics treated in that way. But I went with the flow and now the world is the clinic, right?
05:28 EC: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that I know your story 'cause I know you personally, but I would love for you to share your story. I love your analogy of the meeting, of what happens. [chuckle]
05:39 DK: I'm literally east and west, right, Ella, is that what you're...
05:43 EC: Yes, exactly. I love that part.
05:44 DK: We both enjoyed that together [05:45] ____... We had a lot of wonderful conversations. Yes, I am. For those of you who do not know me, I am... My father is Korean, my mother is American. So I say that I was born to understand that integration is what it's all about. [chuckle] And so I'm really grateful because of my life, I have been able to see the incredible powers of East Asian medicine. The incredible powers of Western medicine. But what I stand for is making sure that the world understands the powers in the ancient medical history of the East, because in my own personal life I have seen it help so many, so many people, and obviously that doesn't even count to the centuries that they have existed. But I am... What I truly stand for is educating ourselves, being aware, because I believe that that is what makes us empowered. That is what gives us the power and the strength and the confidence and the peace of mind to know that we truly can live our best lives possible, be the most beautiful, have the best condition, is when we understand our bodies and we understand the things that we're putting into our body, so.
06:50 EC: I think that you, I can't agree with you more. In fact, that's one of my favorite things. We met in a particular niche market when we were on interchange in that industry. And one of the things about that, and I'd love your input here, what I see now is this increased usage of plant medicine. We've so long given our power away, I am feeling these symptoms, and we go to the doctor and we ask the doctor or we tell the doctor in the nine minutes that we're alloted to sit with them, "I am feeling these symptoms," and we give our power to the doctors to then tell us about ourselves, based on their checklist of symptoms, and then prescribe from there. And I think what's been really cool is understanding our bodies more. We're able to feel different and we're coming in tune with ourselves, and so we're taking our power back. And I think that might be why we're hearing more about herbal ingredients, but what is your take on why we're hearing more about adaptogens specifically?
07:54 DK: Right. It's really funny Ella, because you mentioned at the beginning, can you imagine that there is a time that we were at the forefront of the natural product industry, or what is known today as clean beauty industry, right? It's just... I mean it's crazy. How could it possibly be that this didn't exist, but about 15-20 years ago, we were some of the first to bring this about. And of course, having said that, we have been and still are on a mission for herbal medicine, botanical medicine. And so I do agree with you that all of a sudden now, we're seeing a wave of people really looking towards a medicine that has existed for so long. In this case, herbal medicine, the use of botanicals and whole plants. Why I think that is that... I think you said it beautifully, there's so much that Western medicine brings us so far, there are so many amazing things about it, why wouldn't we utilize it? The technologies, the diagnostics. Of course, we wanna utilize that. There are certainly very good ingredients and medicines that come from the west. But in the east, they focus on your overall wellness. And I really had to sum that up. Of course, there's much more to it. But I always say, "Why in the world do we wait until we're sick? Why in the world do we wait till we have a skin condition? Why do we wait until we're in pain to start paying attention to our bodies?"
09:09 EC: Sure. Absolutely.
09:10 DK: The beautiful thing is, as we all know, particularly in this field, I know we care very much about our skin, about our body. We know how brilliant our body is at healing itself, at balancing itself, but if we keep giving it such harsh, challenging moments in time where we're not taking care, down the road, we're gonna feel those effects. And so I believe that herbal medicine, the ancient medical systems, let's say. They really do focus a lot on preventative... Or not even preventative, just wellness. And I think that's why this is coming out so strong. And I also believe that for a while people have thought that natural medicine was not very powerful or effective.
09:47 EC: Agree.
09:49 DK: I have to admit that I have seen that myself, whether it's using skin care or hair care products, body care. I have also experienced using formulations that looked amazing but really just didn't give you what you were looking for. And that's another reason why I thought it was so important to come out with East Asian medicine, East Asian formulas and skin care as I have... As they have been passed down our lineage because I know that they are so effective. But it's not always that easy. And so something I speak about a lot is, as we will talk today, herbal ingredients, individual ones are so important, but truly, the most important thing about herbal medicine is how ingredients interact with one another.
10:25 EC: I love it.
10:25 DK: [10:25] ____ Right? The proper formula.
10:29 EC: Okay, yes.
10:29 DK: [10:30] ____ If I may say so. With all due respect, who do not understand that. So I will say this, you can call it an herbal formula or herbal product, let's say, botanical product, and stick a whole bunch of ingredients into a product, and voila! But that's not how it actually works. True herbal medicine, true botanical medicine comes from understanding each ingredient. I always like to acknowledge that true herbologists, they say you could spend an entire lifetime on one ingredient. Just take that in for a second. One ingredient.
11:00 EC: That's a lot.
11:00 DK: Experiencing it. You take an ingredient like ginseng. Your whole life you can study it and you still won't understand it. That's like a very East Asian principled way of understanding the study of herbology, right?
11:11 EC: Wow.
11:11 DK: Because then furthermore, you understand how they interact together and that's how we encourage people to look for their formulas by experts who understand that formulation aspect.
11:24 EC: That to me, reminds me. I love to speak in analogies. So it's assuming that this pretty girl and this pretty guy are gonna make a good couple just 'cause they're pretty. When they might not have the chemistry to move forward or whatever. Or this smart person and this smart person should get together and have a business, when they might not have that... The same efficacy when put together. I don't even... That's amazing, I've always been, I'm grateful that I have the thought process that life goes on and that our reincarnation... Because I have many lives to study all these ingredients I'm fascinated about.
11:57 DK: That's right. You need it. [chuckle] It's the truth.
12:01 EC: Yeah. I guess it brings a couple questions because when you're talking about quality of ingredients, I think it's probably pretty important, too, and where you get them from. You see cauliflower, they're called puffs, they're like Cheetos, but the cauliflower puffs. And you think, "Oh, those are healthy. Those are gonna be good for me because they're cauliflower." And when you see other... That's similar in the skin care world where it's like this one, this particular formula has this amazing herbal product in it but it doesn't mean it's gonna work or that it's gonna be good for you. So how are adaptogens... So let's talk about just a few. You mentioned ginseng, we see a rise in... Definitely mushrooms are gonna be making a big scene, and we know the adaptogenic properties of hemp, even. And so is it... How are they sourced and is there some important considerations for that? In looking at...
12:55 DK: I will say... Sorry, Ella. I will say that, so from an herbologist's perspective, we look at this list that we probably will mention a few more adaptations in our time together here today. So there is not one particular way or place. That's the truth, that's what makes herbology so very complex, right? You're right, the highest quality is the most important. Next to that is I, as I said, the proper formula, the perfect recipe, okay? So when it comes to adaptogens, depending on which one you speak of, and as you just said, just ginseng, for example. So you would have to look at each ingredient, each herbal adaptogenic herbal ingredient that we're speaking of, and depending on which one we're speaking of that's where we find the greatest source. And what I mean by that is sometimes, now we're breaking into a whole other topic for a second here, but I think you will find this interesting, a lot of people ask me about organic, "Is organic the very best, should we?" And I always find it very important to at least acknowledge that organic is not always my favorite direction to go. That may come as a huge surprise, let me make that [13:57] ____.
13:58 EC: That's amazing. I can't wait to hear more. [chuckle]
14:00 DK: When it comes to... That does not mean, I'm sure, it doesn't surprise anyone knowing me or hopefully just hearing me right now. That does not mean that I agree with any herbal ingredients that are grown with pesticides, that is not what I am saying. I am talking about the wild crafted, wild harvested can be, for example, ginseng root grown in the mountains of East Asia, some of the most special places that grow ginseng root. If you went to those ginseng farmers in East Asia, you try to talk to 'em about organic, they wouldn't even know you're talking about. But I tell you what, their version of organic, you couldn't even compare to what we understand organic to be. I cannot imagine a more organic situation than that. Did you see what I'm saying?
14:37 EC: Absolutely.
14:38 DK: And so it's just important to be aware, for example, when it comes to feeding my boys, I always opt for organic. I'm a huge proponent, grapes, berries, you name it. I always try to go for the organic for them because I know what can be in those fruits, vegetables, meats, if that's not the case, and we still have to be careful, right? But when it comes to herbal ingredients, as I just mentioned, it can be a little different. Having an organic ginseng root can be wonderful, still gives amazing properties. But if you, for certain formulations, gave me the choice to have the wild-crafted ginseng root from East Asia, the mountains of Korea, versus the one in Wisconsin, there might be some situations where I would choose the one from the Korean mountain, if that makes sense.
15:22 S1: Hey guys, stop, let's take a quick break.
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16:14 S1: Let's get back to the conversation.
16:17 EC: And I guess that this might be a really broad question, and feel free to answer it in any way that you want to, but how do adaptogens work in the skin? I'm sure different ones play different roles, but is there a way to generally answer that?
16:30 DK: Absolutely, I will stick to my lane for the moment, which is Eastern medicine. I find that people... It just makes sense a lot of times. That's one of my favorite things about sharing Eastern medicine, you hear these principles, and they're almost like... To me a principle is like a universal truth. You can't really argue it too much, right?
16:47 EC: Yeah.
16:49 DK: Yeah. So having said that, when it comes to adaptogens in the skin, the Eastern medicine looks at the skin... And it's very similar, I always look at the similarities, right? Of Western and Eastern. It all comes down to, we all want the health for the skin. I always say, if someone were to ask me, "Dr. Kim, what is the fountain of youth? How are we supposed to achieve that?" I can make it sound very simple, right? How we get there is another question, but basically if you have enough supplementation, nourishment, blood, particularly in Eastern medical terms, you have blood circulation, qi right? Vital energy, remember qi and blood work together in Eastern medicine, right? I find when I have spoken to estheticians in this world, they do really like this, makes sense to them.
17:29 EC: Absolutely.
17:29 DK: Qi and blood travels in the body, qi literally is what pushes blood, what makes it pump, right?
17:35 EC: Okay.
17:36 DK: So we have qi and blood in the body, for example, if we're... We have a supplement... If we're supplemented, probably if you have an "abundance," is the word I'd like to use of that, and then everything flows properly in such a balanced manner, that is the key to youth, that is the key to anti-aging, that's the key to function, right? So the next thing I often say, "If you have function and proper flow, that's it, that's what you need that's the... That is the key and the secret to beauty and the fountain of youth," if I may say. So now getting there is another story. An adaptogen...
18:05 EC: So we have cell turnover function, we have...
18:07 DK: That's right.
18:08 EC: For a youthful skin appearance, we have oil production function, for dryness or oily, and we have melanin function for even skin tone and protection, is that...
18:21 DK: Yeah, I love that you just said that, I certainly can go in that lane, but my favorite thing is finding these parallels and having people think a little bit more deep... Principle of that, 'cause then you see more. So when it comes to adaptogens for the skin that was beautifully put, when you make everything function and balance... You cannot have proper function, you cannot have proper flow, you cannot have an abundance of any of these good, nourishing aspects of our skin to create good, revived new skin cells unless you have balance in homeostasis. So at the principal level, that is when adaptogens are able to do, right? And the beautiful thing about adaptogenic herbs, which of course, let me say again, this principle of adaptogens which are botanicals, I always love this, herbal medicine is built upon this. They say that adaptogenic herbs started in 1945. This understanding on adaptogens with Dr. Lazarev, right? And then that 45 or so many years later, his student, Dr. Breka... Brekhman, I believe it is. He's the one who started really coining this term. And I give that much respect, I do like to acknowledge that this has existed for a long time before that, but wonderful, let's talk about it again. And what he talked about, and which is a very strong principle of Eastern medicine, herbology, and I love, is the understanding... Similar to growing a graceful vine, right? He started looking at...
19:39 DK: And herbologists have done this for centuries, "How did this herbal ingredient get through, basically survive?" Right? So, in particular, he was looking at how certain botanicals live through the most harsh, icy climates and still survived. And he thought to himself... Him and his teacher thought to themselves, "Well, if that plant can survive that climate, I wonder what would happen if you took this plant? I wonder what happened if you applied this topically, would it do the same to our human body?" And of course, as Eastern medicine, as ayurvedic medicine has seen for thousands of years, of course it did. It made a huge difference. It's that principle of that that plant can survive and become adaptogenic to its climate and its environment, and so when you apply it to your body, put it into your body, it has the same effect. So I think that's a beautiful... A beautiful way of understanding this. So now, adaptogenic herbs. Again, we have to think of adaptogenic herbs as a whole category. It is likened to... In Eastern medicine, Chinese medicine, we have different categories of herbs, and we don't have time today to go over all of that, but the highest class is called your tonic, your superior tonic herbs, very superior herbs, and adaptogens are in that category. Really interesting, right?
20:49 EC: Right.
20:49 DK: So herbal medicine however long ago created these categories and then in 1945, 1960-ish, they re-recognized, let's say. I'll make a word.
21:00 DK: They recognized, again, this category of herbs and called it "adaptogens." So when you start to put these on your skin, the beautiful thing is it works with your body. That is the key. I talk about that all of the time. The formulations, for example, that have existed in my lineage for so long. What is one of the reasons they have existed, right? I always say the most important thing to ever understand, no matter how much detail I can give, was that they work or they wouldn't still be here, right?
21:24 EC: Absolutely.
21:24 DK: And one of the reasons they work so well similar to adaptogenic herbs is that they go into or onto the human body, and basically rebalance the imbalance that you have in that moment. And that's the amazing thing about adaptogenic herbs. Particularly... Well not particularly, but in this case, specifically, for skin care, if we have... Certain adaptogens have a moisturizing effect, certain ones actually have a bit of a drying effect, I'm using the proper terms for adaptogenic, of course, translate into skin care. But that's the beautiful thing. We start taking ginseng root, which is known to have so many different constituents that help with the slowing the aging process. We have angelica, which is known as "the woman herb." Why? Because women need blood circulation, they need the abundance of blood [22:08] ____.
22:09 EC: Girl power. Angelica.
22:11 DK: Yes. And angelica is the woman's herb.
22:13 EC: Good. I like her.
22:15 DK: It's referred to as a woman, and it is, it's beautiful. It's like I picture this herb and it is beautiful, it is beautiful, right?
22:18 EC: I could see it right now in the forest. Yes, like an angel in the forest, like singing a sweet song. Like, ooh.
22:25 DK: Yes. Exactly.
22:25 DK: And so when it comes to skin care, studies have been... Have shown that angelica has estrogen-like effects to really help keep that youthful look of the skin. You have Siberian ginseng and others, of course, but particularly Siberian ginseng, eleuthero, which has powerful antioxidant properties, which is known to help the aging process of the skin because it helps so powerfully against free radical damage, right? So this is where it starts crossing over. You have one called he shou wu in Chinese medicine, which is known as polygoni multiflori. By the way, these are all ingredients that I use in my formulations. Are you there? Okay. Sorry.
23:05 EC: Yeah. That's Okay.
23:06 DK: Okay. So he shou wu, or polygoni multiflori, they have anti-aging effects... They are known to have anti-aging effects, where studies show that actually truly slows the aging process. So you can see how deeply we can get into this. Licorice root is known for their powerful anti-inflammatory. So there's tons of case studies out there and how it's so very good for helping to balance conditions such as rosacea, eczema for example. So that's just to name a few.
23:33 EC: Just to name a few, yes. And I think you just said something that I know about you but I wanted to reiterate for the listeners, is that you're referencing clinical studies. And so you're an herbologist, traditional Chinese medicine, which you really take it a step further in backing up with clinical, I guess, Western evidence? I don't know if the Western evidence would be the right thing. So...
23:55 DK: Scientific-based evidence. How about...
23:57 EC: How about that? Yeah, scientific, wherever they are, when they study these. So these are proven. It's not... I think the other thing... So my parents were hippies. Just a little bit about me. And so my mom has drug me through health food stores since I could... Well before I could walk. So there is an association back then of this woo-woo hippie culture and adaptogens and herbs and plant medicine, that now I don't think this... I don't know if it's a generational thing or an acceptance thing or if it's the same thing. But now we don't have to have that, "Oh, this is out-there thinking, this is proven thinking, this is the proven evidence, evidence, not thinking, but this is evidence that of these... Of the efficacy of these. And so I think that was something you touched on and I wanted to point out. Do you have... I know that it's not nice to pick Mommy's favorite, but do you have a favorite adaptogen that you like to formulate with?
24:53 DK: Well, listen, I come from Korea, right? Obviously, I come from many different ethnicities, cultures, and Eastern medicine. So if I had to choose one that... I suppose, of course it would be ginseng root. I mean to me, that's just one of most powerful ingredients in existence. You have to know how to work with it properly, that's the truth, and you truly have a good quality ginseng root. I mean remember, we talk about quality of ingredients, right? And that's where it gets a little different when we start to talk about whole plant, these herbal ingredients, even versus different compounds, right? For example, ginseng root, you go to East Asia, you can walk into the smallest herb store in the corner of the small streets, right? And you walk inside and all of a sudden you'll see this huge, I don't know how to describe it to you, this huge ginseng root in a jar, and liquid, and it's floating. Ginseng is called insam in Korea or rénshēn in Chinese, and it literally is man, like human, right? Because it looks like a human. If you think of a ginseng, the way it roots, it has the ginseng head, it has the body, and it has these roots, and if you look at ginseng, I hope everyone sees this now with me, it literally looks like a human being. I mean, isn't that so cool?
26:04 EC: I can't wait to look it up.
26:06 DK: Right? Right. But the ginseng, and this applies to pretty much all herbal ingredients, but ginseng, in particular. You can have one ginseng root. I could be holding it in the palm of my hand and have another, and maybe to the general eye, you can't tell the difference. But one ginseng root could cost $25, and the other, like the one I describe in the small street in Asia, you walk in this little herb store, it can be a quarter of a million dollars. That's how powerful the properties are, and the difference is that when you have that powerful ginseng root, whether it be for skin conditions, whether it be for digestive, whether it be for energy, fatigue, you name it, the power of that ingredient can do so many different things. And so that's definitely... One of my favorites is ginseng. Of course, there's astragalus, angelica, cannabis, which I speak on often.
26:53 EC: I love... And that's one of my favorites. I'm gonna have you back... I'm gonna actually have you back to talk about hemp cannabis, because I think not just the adaptogenic properties, but the potential and then the excitement. And that's another thing. I think the popularity of hemp cannabis has really flung the door open for other things. And we mentioned even mushrooms coming, and I feel the cannabis movement, in particular, has been a big component in us taking back our health.
27:19 DK: I agree with that, Ella. As you know, I've been at the forefront of that one also, together with you, right?
27:22 EC: Absolutely.
27:25 DK: Through last year. And I agree with you. I agree.
27:26 DK: Oh, you've... Probably ahead of me on that. But I love that. I love that it brought us together, too. That's one of my favorite side components, or side...
27:36 EC: No, I love that, Ella, I couldn't agree more.
27:38 DK: Awesome. Well, Dr. Kim, thank you so much for joining us. I can't wait to have you back on another Etsy Talk, if you would.
27:46 EC: You'd better believe it, I would be here all day, are you kidding? My kids are screaming around the house during the work. I can just sit here and talk to you all day, in my favorite...
27:53 DK: We'll call you later.
27:57 DK: I do want to include ways that people can get in touch with you and I'm gonna include that in the description of this podcast. But just a quick shout-out, you're on LinkedIn, you're on Facebook, you're on Instagram, and then also your website is jbkwellnesslabs.com.
28:14 EC: I also have... My personal website is jenellekim.com, and that's another place where I'm definitely working on providing a lot more information on the philosophy side, but, of course, and then medicine side.
28:28 DK: Y'all, follow her, she has amazing posts. I love your posts on LinkedIn...
28:32 EC: Thanks, Ella.
28:32 DK: And I can't wait to talk to you soon. Thank you so much.
28:35 EC: It's been wonderful. Thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful being here with you and everyone, so.
28:39 DK: Thank you.
28:41 S1: Thanks for joining us today. If you like what you hear, and you want more, subscribe. If you wanna belong to the only all-inclusive association for estheticians that includes professional liability insurance, education, industry insights, and an opportunity to spotlight your sick skills, join at ascpskincare.com. Only $259 per year for all this goodness. ASCP knows it's all about you.