Ep 17 - The Male Perspective in a Female-Dominated Industry

Dylan Magnuson

What would it feel like to be a man in a female dominated industry? Join host Tracy Donley, ASCP Executive Director and guest host Ella Cressman as they have a candid conversation with male esthetician Dylan Magnuson on topics ranging from medical procedures, treatment room obstacles and treating transitioning clientele. What challenges face our male counterparts? What does it mean to provide a “safe space” to the LGBTQ community? Listen in as Dylan’s observations are insightful, eye opening and inspirational.

Author Bio: 

Dylan Magnuson, LE

Growing up in a rural agricultural town in southern Colorado, Dylan Magnuson was never exposed to the world of health and beauty outside of the Walmart aisles. It wasn’t until his sophomore year at Colorado Mesa University that he found his passion learning the anatomy and physiology of the skin. He later enrolled at Heritage College where he earned his associate degree in Esthetics in 2015.

Always eager to learn more, Dylan spent the next few years elevating his skills, from working in day spas and medical offices with plastic surgeons to eventually venturing out to start his own practice. Dylan realized his love for education, and in 2017 he went on to partner with Ella Cressman as a product representative and educator.

Dylan became an ingredient junkie. As a long-time cannabis lover, it was only natural that he found his way into realm of CBD skin care. Over the last 2 years, Dylan has worked passionately educating eager and open-minded estheticians about cannabis products and how to bring them into the treatment room.

Earlier this year, Dylan founded a new business that will help bridge the gaps between the health, wellness, and beauty industries, while allowing estheticians to share their knowledge and skills far beyond their current reach. The Hive, A Wellness Community will launch in the fall of 2020.

00:00 Tracy Donley: You are listening to ASCP Esty Talk, where we share insider tips, industry resources, and education for estheticians at every stage of the journey. Let's talk, 'cause ASCP knows it's all about you. 
00:15 TD: Hi, there, and welcome to ASCP Esty Talk. I am Tracy Donley, Executive Director of ASCP, and I am such a lucky little lady, 'cause guess what? We are joined by fellow podcaster, Ella Cressman, who is... If you guys don't know her, you should. She's a licensed esthetician, and she's also the host of the ASCP Esty Talk podcast series called 'Ingredient Decked Out'. Hi, Ella. 
00:46 Ella Cressman: Woo! Hi, Tracy. I'm so excited to be doing this with you. 
00:46 TD: Yay. And the best, best, best part is we have an amazing guest today. His name is Dylan Magnuson, and we are going to hear his really unique story, and hopefully enlighten a few people out there. So should we just kind of jump right into it?  
01:12 EC: Yes, I think that would be great. I think what's awesome is that we work definitely in a female-dominant industry, so it's really great as we've seen a movement towards men's care, but to also have the perspective of a male in the industry. So I am so excited to hear more. 
01:29 TD: Yeah. So, Dylan, will you start by just telling us a little bit about yourself and your background?  
01:38 Dylan Magnuson: Yeah, definitely. Well, thanks for having me on. I'm super-excited. So I kind of started my skin care journey a little bit later on. I grew up in a small rural town in Southern Colorado, so I wasn't really exposed to many things in the health and beauty industry, one, from just living where I lived, but also because I was a male and it wasn't just something that was kind of typical, especially 10, 15 years ago. And so that has kind of been what kind of definitely helped me, I think, grow in this industry, was just that thirst for knowledge that I didn't get when I was younger. And so, when I went off to college, I moved to Grand Junction, and I was studying Biology with hopes of entering into med school, specifically for dermatology, but then I ended up taking a gap year, and I kind of decided to go to school for aesthetics. I was interested in skin care, but I was like do I really want to go to school for 10 years? Am I really gonna be interested in just the medical side of it? And I think that's something we, as estheticians, have a completely different care and approach to skin care as a dermatologist does. And so I kind of decided to get involved with skin care, kind of just as a side job to put myself through school 'cause that was still my end goal at the end of the day, was still to go and get my dermatology specification in medicine. 
03:19 DM: And so I went to Heritage College in Denver, and I enrolled in their associates program, and so I went to school for two years to become an esthetician, which is kind of rare in this industry. 
03:31 TD: Wow. Yeah, it is. Wow. 
03:36 DM: I felt like I was in school forever, and I loved it. I think it gave me a confidence that I think really helped me once I got out on my own, I think six, six months. I don't even know the standard, standard time for aesthetics in Colorado, but I know it's something around six months. 
03:58 TD: Yeah, six to nine months. Yeah. 
04:00 DM: I think it kind of can be a little bit scary when you come out, 'cause it was scary for me, and I had already been doing it for two years, much less only six months and having to come out and start on my own. So I think I enjoy the program for what it offered me, and that kind of education that it did give me. And then, from school, we were required to do an internship, and so I was lucky enough to get to do mine with Ms. Ella, where I was able to just learn so much more than I even learned in the two years I was in school, and really kind of helped grow my skill set. And so I eventually continued working with Ella and opened up my own practice, as well as I kind of worked in a day spa setting, just doing your traditional facials, nothing super aggressive, and then I kind of found my way into working in a plastic surgeon's office. I did a lot more like body contouring treatments as opposed to aggressive skin care treatments there, but it was still kind of a whole different side of things than working with post-op patients, even having face lifts and worked on that. So, it was a unique experience, and then I kind of found my way into the world of CBD skin care, and that's kind of what I've been doing for the past two years. 
05:26 TD: So now are you using CBD products in your practice or are you an educator, a product educator?  
05:32 DM: I am the sales director, currently, for Primal Healing. So they are kind of a newer up and coming CBD skin care and topical lot. And so I work in sales as well as education for them. 
05:49 TD: I love that. And you know what's really interesting, we're always looking to show young estheticians all the different ways that they... Or young or old estheticians, of the ways that they can use their aesthetics license. It's not always just doing day-in, day-out treatments. So that's great. 
06:10 DM: So true. I think... 
06:13 EC: I think what Dylan too... What Dylan represents is just... And he's done a little bit more than what he's telling you now. 
06:18 TD: Is he?  
06:19 EC: Yeah. But what he represents is the vastness of the industry too, is that he's had his toe in quite a few different backwaters, if you will. But this industry is very broad. He's even trained in lash extensions, and is quite good at it because he's very detail-oriented, but it wasn't his passion. And the other thing that Dylan has exemplified is the flexibility to be able to understand what is... He's allowed himself space to understand exactly what he wants to do, [06:49] ____ flexible as it goes on. And he has extensive medical training, and he has experience in a lot of different things. One thing that he's very also gifted at is teaching, and so I will take full credit for that. Just kidding. 
07:09 EC: So he's great and so awesome. 
07:11 TD: I can tell already Ella just wants to be your biggest advocate, and I think she wants to tell your story, Dylan, but we're not gonna let her. We're gonna make you tell your story, just so you know. 
07:22 DM: I love it. 
07:24 TD: But how awesome to have a big, huge fan like that. So let me ask you a little bit more, go deeper, what interests you about skin care, and what would you... Let's ask that question first, so what interests you so much about skin care before you'd gotten into it?  
07:50 DM: So I was lucky enough to never really have terrible skin issues as a teenager. I maybe had one or two break-outs here and there. So I was very fortunate that I didn't really have any skin issues. I'm still kind of fortunate that I don't really have troublesome skin now, currently. And so, for me, my passion didn't come from this need to learn to try to fix myself. It came from more of a passion, just in kind of taking care of the body and taking care of yourself. I think our industry is a very superficial industry, and I kind of push away from that side of our industry, in a sense that our skin is an organ, it's our largest organ, and it's our first defense against all kind of micro-invasions, in a sense. And so I think when we take care of our skin, it's more than just kind of making us look aesthetically-pleasing, but actually really helping to keep our body healthy as well as our mental health. I think, as vain as I try not to be, I mean, I still do care about my appearance, and I think that is something that still goes into that mental health aspect. If you look good, you do feel good. 
09:08 TD: Oh, I so agree. 
09:10 DM: And so those were kind of where my passions with skin care lied. It wasn't so much about trying to make you look beautiful or trying to make you look like an Instagram model. It was focusing on how to make you feel good about yourself, as well as kind of helping to make your body feel good and keep your body healthy. As we did mention, I kind of have dabbled in lash extensions. I did it for a year, and I think that was just... It was fun because it did hone in on my OCD, and I got to be as meticulous as I wanted to be, but at the same point, I felt like it wasn't like what interested me because it was just kind of, again, helping you look good and maybe cut down on some morning time, getting ready, but it just didn't align with my passion so much, and so... 
10:04 TD: It was more beauty versus health, it sounds like. 
10:04 DM: Yes. 
10:06 TD: Well, tell me... Oh, go ahead. 
10:10 EC: I was gonna ask, when... You went to extra school, like you mentioned, many programs are four to nine months throughout the country, and you did two years. Do you feel that... You also mentioned the word beauty and making people feel beautiful, but what about the male population? Do you feel like there was any kind of concentration on the difference between male and female health... Skin health, as it relates? Or was there enough when you got out, and you started practicing on women and men. Did you feel comfortable toggling between the two?  
10:46 DM: I think definitely, within school, I don't think I worked on more than two male clients the whole two years I was in school. So really getting to kind of experiment with male skin. One, facial hair, I think that's kind of a tricky thing when you're just starting out too, is like, how do I really do my manipulations with this gentleman who has a full beard or maybe who just shaved, and is a little bit sensitive because of that. So, in school, there really wasn't a lot of education centered around what it means to be a man and to perform these services. It wasn't until later on when I started doing my internship and when I actually started taking clients, that was something that was important to me. As a male, I felt like I wasn't represented. I think that this industry is predominantly female, and I think even products and marketing and branding and everything is centered around the female clientele, obviously so, female clients are the biggest kind of contributor to it, but I think it also has to do with the fact that men haven't been targeted for as long as the female population has been targeted. So trying to focus on skin care in a way that's not, I guess, projected as being gay for taking care of yourself I think is something that can be a little bit tricky for males. 
12:17 DM: And so being able to get them into skin care was even a little bit tricky to start with, for me, was just kind of trying to find male clientele. Luckily, I was able to kind of start to gain more and more, and I did learn a lot just through working with them. I learned how to work with their face after they've shaved. I've learned to work with men who had a full beard, and what that means, and still being able to take care of the skin underneath the beard area, because it does get neglected a lot of the time. The thickness of the skin, the toughness, texture, as well as the oil consistency, it is different. And I think, at the end of the day, skin is skin, but skin is gonna be different on a man than it is on a woman, just with different Fitzpatrick types, in a sense. So that is kind of a learning curve that you do have to learn that experience. It's not really given to you in school. And I think that going to school for so long and still not having the experience is interesting because it speaks to our industry and how we're taught. And I think it kind of focuses in on keeping that same kind of standard as opposed to trying to broaden it and grow around all aspects of it. 
13:40 TD: You mentioned Fitzpatrick, so that's just another element to what you're putting out there, as far as male skin. Do you feel that you had the proper training or felt equipped leaving school as it relates to treating skin of color?  
14:00 DM: No, I was taught like aggressive treatments on... Anyone over a Fitzpatrick three is dangerous, and you don't really want to do that because, of course, they are more prone to hyperpigmentation. And so that was something that was kinda like, steer clear of these really aggressive treatments because we can't necessarily offer these same services, which later, come to find out, I found out it was just kind of not true at all. And I think that is something that we need to also re-educate ourselves and learn these new trends and techniques, and more so just how to handle higher Fitzpatrick types as well as just more compromised types of skin. I think it's very different, and I think, in school, we were taught almost just a very narrow... A narrower range of people. You're taught like your acne, what to do with acne, but we're not really taught about dry acne so much as we are just the oily condition. And so I think there's a lot of learning and a lot of growth that happens outside of school, and one of those is learning that you can treat higher Fitzpatricks with a very aggressive peel and still achieve amazing results. The prep work and preparing for it is different, but at the end of the day, you still can do it. 
15:27 TD: Do you think the Fitzpatrick scale is sufficient?  
15:31 DM: No, I think... I mean, yes and no. I think it is a broader... I don't know how to say it, I guess, but I think it's bigger than the Fitzpatrick scale. I think there's a lot more that goes into it beyond just how does your skin respond to sun exposure. I mean, majority of the questions addressing Fitzpatrick type are how your skin responds to sun exposure and ethnic background. And I think that could be a little bit tricky because a lot of our ethnic backgrounds are so blended that it's really kind of hard to even use that as a full, I guess, deciding factor in your Fitzpatrick type. Me, personally, I'm very light-complected, but I am still of Hispanic descent and I am a high Fitz three. And so I think there are just different things to learn, and it comes down to, I think, evaluating the skin as well as these different kind of tests and tools that could help determine how to treat someone. 
16:38 TD: So, let me ask you... You know, I think it's interesting that you said you were doing a lot of body contouring when you were at the med spot that you were working at, or... How was that perceived by the client, I'm assuming, and maybe I shouldn't, but I'm assuming the majority of the clients that you were seeing were probably women, asking for the body contouring. What was that like?  
17:07 DM: It was interesting. So I was... My primary job duty was actually... As I was part of the management team, and then secondary, I was the secondary esthetician, just because we only had one esthetician. And so, in order to kind of accommodate everyone, I would step in and do services. However, I didn't see as many patients as she did because there was that issue that I was a male, and I am doing these body contour treatments on someone who does have to get stripped down to their... They have to expose themselves a lot more than they do in just a facial. And so there were issues, I mean, treating the gluteal region, treating inner thighs. And so I think it was kind of something that was a little hesitant for a lot of our female patients, and some of them did just say, "No, I'll wait until I could see the female esthetician." So that was an issue that did present itself to me, and you think... That was something I even noticed, just waxing. I think when you're in those more intimate settings and intimate services, it is kind of hard to gain the same clientele and kind of have that same... 
18:37 TD: Trust, in a sense. It's like a trust... 
18:38 EC: Like a [18:38] ____?  
18:39 DM: Yeah, it's like even though I am not interested in you at all, I think it's still uncomfortable for a woman to kind of be touched by a male, in that sense. And that's something I can't personally speak to, but there is that... 
18:55 TD: What do you mean when you say that you're not interested, Dylan?  
18:58 DM: Well, I am a gay man. 
19:00 TD: Oh, okay. Didn't wanna just read between... 
19:01 EC: [19:01] ____. 
19:03 TD: Didn't wanna just try to read between the lines there, so... 
19:07 DM: Be very mysterious here. 
19:09 TD: Yeah, like, I'm gonna take it personal over here. Well, also too, I was thinking... So not only is it that they're getting... Like you said, with waxing or with body contouring, they're disrobing, but also too, I wonder, women, in general... I shouldn't say, in general, a lot of women just have insecurities about our bodies or about our looks. And so, a lot of times, with a female, you may feel more comfortable 'cause they're sharing your same insecurities, potentially. Did you run up... What was that like? Did you run up against some of those issues as well?  
19:56 DM: I did have... I think it was kind of a sense of trying to build that trust and that confidence with them so that they were willing to express those insecurities to me. And I think, at a certain point, once they did kind of feel that way, that they had that confidence with me, I think it did kind of help for me to... They're like, oh, I'm insecure about... Their weight, or something, and here I am doing a spray tan on you, or something like, "You look great." Well, and I think it did kind of help to try to counteract those, I guess, negative feelings they have towards themselves, and try to promote just body positivity and overall positivity within yourself. And so I think it did help. I think it took more work to get there. I can't speak for a woman, and so I didn't try to relate or be like, oh yes, I am insecure about this too. I didn't try to bring myself into it. 
21:00 TD: I like that, yeah. 
21:00 DM: I just tried to be as positive I can about their situation. And so I didn't really try to bring in any of my insecurity. So I don't necessarily know if that's even something that is done in the treatment room, where it's like we're comparing our insecurities to make you feel less insecure. My thought behind it was just trying to make them feel as positive about themselves as they could, so they were okay with me doing a service, and knowing that I'm not judging you for this, I'm not even focused on that. And I said, I'm focused on my job. I wanna do a good job. I'm focused on getting these little hairs off of you. I'm focusing on making sure you are spray-tanned to the gods, and everything is looking perfect. As a service provider, I think I can be at a disadvantage for being a male, one, towards women and even towards male clients. I think there's... 
21:50 TD: Oh, interesting, yeah. 
21:52 DM: Some stigma with a man touching another man as well. And so I think, as a service provider, I'm at a disadvantage. Whereas, when it comes to selling, I do think I'm at an advantage. And I think that's why I've excelled and have departed from doing services so much, and focused more on education and sales. 
22:13 TD: When you were at the day spa, so really early on in your career, did you feel that... What's that your spa? Was it like an independent business? Or were you an employee someplace? And how were you bringing in clients?  
22:31 DM: So it was just a chain of spas, and so it was a very large corporate company, and so the customers kind of came in. I didn't have to do a lot to necessarily build my clientele, but I had to do something to keep them. We had... I think we had like seven estheticians at the peak. And so, between seven of them, I was... Other than, again, the lady who had been there the longest, I had the second-highest request rate. So, once a client saw me, I think I did everything I could to kind of get them to come back to me. And so there was that aspect where I didn't really have to go out and get clients, it was more up to me to keep the clients. 
23:24 TD: So do you think because of the fact that you're a man that you felt like you had to work a little bit harder? A little harder maybe than some of your female counterparts?  
23:38 DM: I think it was harder for me to get booked, initially, and I think that was more on the end of our front desk team to try to sell me, in a sense, to get them just to initially book with me, but I think, once they booked with me, I had confidence in myself. I have an education that went beyond skin care and the aesthetics world. I have a lot of biology and science classes under my belt, and so I think having that knowledge to back up everything else I was taught in skin care helped me to kind of build that confidence and trust with them, so it was easier for them to come back to me. And I think it kind of went back to that point where not even kind of... The services are not any different. It was very strict protocols and things to follow, but it was more so my confidence and my knowledge in helping them understand their skin, and help them be able to address their skin more precisely, as opposed to just kind of being very strict and starting with these protocols that I kind of, in the treatment room, went behind their back and got a little creative on the side. 
24:56 TD: You detoured for what went right instead of what wouldn't. Yeah. 
24:58 DM: Just a little bit... 
24:58 EC: I have a question then. It's a little bit off topic, but I'm curious. It's kind of a two-part question then. Do you think... I know we've seen an increase in men's directed skin care, men's directed protocols in the last five years, I would say, and men-specific products. Also with that, we have seen a movement with heterosexual males coming in and understanding skin health more than just an association. Do you think that the LGBTQ community is represented? Or how does that plan... And have you experienced, especially with transgender guests or clientele, any additional challenges?  
25:53 DM: As members of the LGBTQ community, there's always that little bit of hesitancy of like is this gonna be a safe space for me? Am I going to be able to express myself truly without being judged or put in a compromised position, 'cause, at the end of the day, I mean, when you're getting a service, you are in a compromised position. You have this person performing this service on you. And so it can be a little bit scary. And I think that is something that is a little bit tricky for our community, is that if you don't know if you're in the presence of family, in a sense... I mean, it can be a little bit scary, and maybe you might be a little bit more cautious or maybe you're not opening up as much, maybe you're not saying everything that you're doing at home and being honest with kind of home care, and things like that, just because you are a little bit on guard at that moment. I think, when it comes to the actual skin care treatments and skin, as a whole, I think it can be... It is the same, regardless. I think when you're dealing with someone who's transgender, I think it comes down to having to have that knowledge and that understanding of addressing them by the gender that they identify with. And so I think having to just be mindful of those issues, as well as, when you're on hormones, I mean, it's almost like puberty again, so you're having to address these sensitive topics that we go through as teenagers. 
27:34 DM: And now you may be having someone having to deal with some issues that are present in their 20s, 30s, or whenever they are choosing to go on these hormones. And so I think there is some sensitivity and care that has to be taken in those aspects as well. 
27:49 TD: Hey, guys, I need to take a quick break to tell you about our bi-monthly digital magazine created just for you, the independent esthetician, it's 'Skin Deep Magazine'. The digital edition is free to all licensed estheticians. What? That's right, it's free. Now, if you're an ASCP member, and you really should be an ASCP member, you get the beautiful print version of 'Skin Deep Magazine' as a part of membership. This magazine is chocked full of resources, techniques and science from the top professionals inside and outside the industry. So, go to ascpskindeepdigital.com and subscribe today. It is free. And that link will be in the show notes, so check it out. Let's get back to the chat. 
28:40 TD: Can you share some examples with us of how you can... How our listeners could make people feel safe and things that they can adapt into their own practice to make clients from the LGBT community feel more comfortable?  
29:00 DM: I think the biggest thing is just being honest and upfront about it, like this is a safe space for LGBTQ people. I think marketing and pushing that and showing that is a great way to start. I think when you're advertising that you're a safe space, it will kind of help bring in some people. I think word of mouth is gonna be great, so if you can get members of the community to kind of... If you have a few that do come and see you, letting their friends know that, hey, this is a great place. She's super-friendly, she's cool, he's awesome, he knows this and that, and I think just being able to talk openly about it, but also just being respectful about it too. I think that is an issue as well, like the openness. I think it's one thing to be accepting of it, and it's one thing to be okay with it and offer a safe space, but I think you need to be open to talking to them as you would talk to any other client. I feel like we, as these therapists and technicians, are kind of like little therapists, in a sense. Our clients open up to us, they tell us these things, so if you're not going to be willing to hear the stories from a gay man or anyone from the LGBTQ group, then that's gonna do a disservice to you. So being open to those communications that they're wanting to share just as much as a hetero person is. 
30:31 TD: I guess another thing I would ask, or a question for you would be, is there too much? Is it ever a point where it's like, okay, you don't... It's okay to identify with us, but is it ever too much to... What does that boundaries look like?  
30:54 DM: I think too much is too much when you're being phony about it. I don't think it's necessarily ever too much when it's truthful, when it's honest. 
31:04 TD: Authentic. 
31:06 DM: I think it becomes phony when you're trying to be more than you are. I think it's okay if you don't go to gay clubs. It's okay if you don't know... Watch Drag Race. It's okay if you don't know our culture, but it's different if you are just being more like fake about it, I guess, as opposed to just being honest and open about it. 
31:31 TD: That's great advice, Dylan. And I can hear it in your voice just how genuine you are and authentic. And I can tell that that must just resonate when you were doing treatments, and in the treatment room with clients, and so forth. So... 
31:49 DM: I think that was like... I mean, yeah, when I first started, that was kinda like I wanted to help people I could relate to. I wanted to have clients that I could relate to, so naturally, I sought out men as clients because I'm a man, I could relate to men. I naturally sought out LGBTQ members, just because I am part of that community, so we could relate, we could have a lot to talk about. It could be fun. And I think you've built that rapport. And I think I kind of was seeking out that clientele. And in a sense, I wasn't necessarily even focusing on other clientele at that point. I was just kind of taking them. And I think that was me just trying to, I guess, maybe overcompensate, like I want to be able to provide this safe space and let them know that they could come to me and it will be okay. We could do whatever you wanna do, and it could be however you want to make your service. It is your service, so let's do it around you. And I think it can be just... It can be fun when you relate to people. And when you find that space, I think it's just... 
33:01 DM: I guess when we were talking about advantages and disadvantages, I think it did put me in an advantage, in that I wanted to target a specific clientele that related with me, so I was able to build a clientele that kind of all fit into the same kind of group that I wanted to make of my clients. Does that make sense?  
33:23 TD: Well, and that you knew. Yeah, and I think that's interesting because it's also the client... You knew that client the best, right? Or you could make assumptions about that client easier than you might be able to make an assumption on a straight female. 
33:41 DM: Correct. Yeah. So I think, yeah, it's just like that ability to relate to your clients definitely, definitely helps. And I don't think that's necessarily a good or a bad thing. I think it's great to have clients that you can't relate too, because it helps you learn in this industry, like how to treat different types of skin. And so I think there's that aspect to it, but when it comes to just being able to relate and joke around, my treatment room was very loud and jokative, and we're not listening to gongs and harps. We're listening to regular music. It's gonna be fun. We're gonna joke. I don't even really want you to get undressed. Let's just have fun and work on your face. 
34:26 TD: Yeah. 
34:26 EC: I think relating... And that's something too, if I could chime in, I think another thing that our industry does is we focus on competition, how I wanna be able to provide every single service under the sun because my competition is. And I don't want them going somewhere else. But Dylan touched on a couple things there, is that your clientele is going... You'll seek a clientele, but your clientele will also find you. So you'll find someone who does align. Often, those like-minded people are gonna come to you. They're looking for something. They will seek you out. And also, you can learn from the people who are gonna give you a little bit of pushback too. So I think that's an important point, is not being afraid of competition, but also just attracting the clientele that you want. And the other part of that is finding those... I think that's a special social skill in aesthetics, is finding ways to relate to people too, that you... I think empathy plays a huge factor, but also listening. Listening is really important as an esthetician, not just to what they are telling you, whether it's on their intake forms or during the consultation, but the body language, the other things that they might allude to, that help give you more insight into lifestyle as it pertains to them treating their skin. But it's definitely a skill to be mastered, and it all starts with the consultation. 
35:51 TD: So we had mentioned just previously, talking about clients that may be transitioning. Do you know of any resources as it relates to caring for people's skin because they are doing, like you mentioned, hormone therapy. Is there any resources that you could think of that you could share with our listeners?  
36:13 DM: I wish I did, honestly. I think that would have... 
36:16 TD: I know, it's hard. 
36:17 DM: Yeah, I know. I think that would have been helpful to me. I think most of my knowledge from it just comes from anecdotal evidence, speaking with people, and hearing their issues and their complaints, and trying to address that, as opposed to actual, like, what does this mean like cellularly? What is happening on the skin while we're taking these hormones? I think that would be great to have that, and to have that class, just because it is different. The skin is gonna be a little bit more sensitive. It's gonna be compromised. Your barrier is gonna be out of whack. And I think there's a lot to it that is going to be, one, based off the individual, but two, I mean, I think it almost is just having to address these things that we don't really know about. And even myself, I don't personally know about them. It's just more so what I've heard from my friends that have kind of talked to me about it. 
37:19 TD: So what you're recommending, as of right now, is just a very thorough skin consultation?  
37:28 DM: Definitely, I think that's where it begins with every client, in a sense. A thorough consultation is your base, it's how you start a treatment. I don't think you could... I think you're doing a disservice if you don't do an in-depth consultation with everybody. And it's like Ella said, listen to your clients, I think so much... Even me, when I first started, I was just ready to throw all my knowledge in your face because I'm so smart and I know all these things [laughter], as opposed to just sitting down and listening to you. 
37:55 TD: True. 
37:57 DM: Like listening to understand instead of listening to tell you what to do. 
38:03 TD: So I guess then, when it comes to the consultation, you really have to be bold and ask lots of questions. 
38:09 DM: It can push back a lot of people. I try to preface, I do a very thorough consultation, like no judgments. I do a bunch of bad things that are not good for my skin, but I just want you to tell me... If there is anything you don't wanna answer, you don't have to, but just know that I'm asking relevant questions to help treat your skin. I'm not asking questions just to tell you this is bad, don't do this, or anything just to get to know you, and point the finger at you. I'm asking because I'm asking to try to help you. And so I think being upfront about it, I am gonna ask some personal questions, you don't have to answer them, but I'm asking them to best serve you... It's not to judge you. It's not to tell you not to do this, don't do this, all of those things. It's more so just so that I could have... And it's like, I know we're not doctors, but it's like everyone says, you're gonna tell the truth to your doctor, otherwise they can't help you. Same with us, if you don't hear the truth from them... If they are drinking a bottle of wine every day, of course they're going to have kind of [39:22] ____ skin and different dryness issues to deal with. And I think building a network of people as well, beyond our scope of practice, is key as well, being able to refer people, even if you do have a transgender person... 
39:37 TD: Oh, I love that. 
39:40 DM: Being able to refer them to a doctor who specializes in that, to kind of help them with any issues they may be having, to have dietitian friends, to have... 
39:54 TD: Psychologists, therapists. 
39:54 DM: Yeah, I think there's so many avenues, that networking is key in our industry because we can't solve all your problems. 
40:01 TD: So I know Ella touched on this a little bit already, but I wanted to get a more direct feedback from you on this. So how do you feel about all the skin care companies that are creating very specific products for men?  
40:17 DM: I think it's kind of gimmicky. 
40:21 TD: No, I appreciate that honesty. Yeah. 
40:23 DM: I think it's just like trying to jump on a bandwagon. Yes, male skin is different from a female skin, but not more so to warrant a specific line of products targeted towards men, 'cause that specific line is mostly just filled with all of your BHAs and things to get rid of oil and sandalwood, and these musky scents, where it's like that isn't necessarily like the male market. That's not what we're after. It's not like we... We still need the same products, but it's like trying to make it less feminine by trying to make it overly-masculine. I think it's also just not doing anything. I think it is gimmicky, in that sense. I think there are certain things that target men, but it can also go towards, again, LGBTQ issues. Male and female, I think it just... Gender is not binary, so I think when you have men's skin care, and things like that... 
41:25 TD: Mm-hmm, that's so good. 
41:28 DM: It just kind of like throw a wrench in what we're trying to do. I think it comes down to understanding the skin that's in front of you, the skin that's on your table, and understanding what products are gonna work for that. 
41:42 TD: Any advice on if you're looking to create the perfect space for LGBT clients, you know? What does that look like?  
41:52 DM: I think that is up to a lot of interpretation, for one... 
41:57 TD: I'm sure. 
41:58 DM: But I do think there are some subtle things to do, of course. I think overtly-feminine decor is not gonna necessarily bring in a lot of male clients, and I think the same kind of goes for... 
42:10 TD: It's not even gonna bring in me. 
42:12 DM: Overtly-masculine decor, is going to kind of push away feminine clients. But I think, at the end of the day, it's about finding balance in the feminine and the masculine. And I think when you find that balance in both, then it will kind of align to all people. I think if you want to attract very feminine, you are gonna go very floral, very, very... I don't even know what to say... 
42:40 TD: Pink. I don't know. Pink. 
42:41 DM: But it's like you're just gonna go towards those type of products and that type of decor, pink and jewels and diamonds. And I think, men, you're gonna go with steel and wood and rock, and I think it's good to like blend those together. 
42:53 TD: It's true. 
42:55 DM: I think you could blend those perfectly together. I think stone and wood go great with floral. I think it comes down to just kind of opening up Pinterest and getting very creative with it. I think it's about balance as opposed to choosing one over the other, if you're wanting to attract a wide range of clients. And I think most people do wanna do that. Most people are trying to get in with a bunch of different people. They want their female clients. They want male clients. They want their clients, their non-binary clients, they want everyone. And so I think when you find balance, as opposed to really leaning in towards one side or the other, that would kind of be my recommendation. I think, in regards to LGBTQ people, I think having something somewhere that represents our community, whether it's a little sticker that says safe place, whether it's on your website, whether it's a full blown out rainbow flag at your checkout stand, something... I think, to us, that's just a symbol that, okay, that place understands. They know. And so I think, at that point, that's something that you could add. It doesn't have to be excessive. It doesn't have to mean everything is rainbow. It doesn't have to mean you overdo it. Again, it's about just finding that balance and a hint of something, not necessarily going all the way in. 
44:28 EC: Thank you so much, Dylan, for being open and honest and being, before anything else, an awesome esthetician. And I'm looking forward to seeing where you go with your new... 
44:39 DM: Aww, thank you. I appreciate it. 
44:42 TD: I know, and I wanna... You guys, I am confident that we're gonna see Dylan. As soon as the world starts opening up a little bit more, we're gonna get him in here to do some technique videos. Who doesn't love that idea?  
44:54 DM: I am missing Colorado. I would be happy to come back. 
45:01 TD: Well, we're gonna send you the invite, mister. 
45:03 DM: Perfect. 
45:04 EC: You might see him, actually, in a video 'Eye Bros' tutorial video from a few years ago. 
45:09 DM: Yeah. 
45:10 TD: In which one?  
45:11 EC: 'Eye bros'. 
45:13 TD: 'Eye bros'?  
45:14 DM: I was the model for Ella. 
45:16 EC: Yeah, he's a famous model. 
45:18 TD: Oh my God, that's hilarious. 
45:20 DM: I'm already ASCP-famous. 
45:22 TD: I love it. Well, I'm gonna have to go check out that video, and we'll put that in the show notes so everyone can check it out too. Before we go, Dylan, is there any kind of resource that you wanna share, that you just can't live without. And it doesn't have to even be professional, it could be personal too. It could be a blog. It could be a website. It could be anything that you wanna share. 
45:47 DM: I think a personal resource to me, I... Especially with quarantine, and everything we've been facing, like YouTube University is the real deal, and I think I have just learned so much and open up a lot of things and a lot of skills that I've been kind of working on through that. And so I think that's been something big for me, is just investing in something and then trying to learn as much as I could about it. And I think that's kind of what I've been doing a lot personally, is just investing in the experts who know what they're doing and learning from them directly. 
46:28 TD: I love asking everybody tell us your favourite personal skin care hack that you use on yourself. 
46:36 DM: As I've said, I have been lucky that I don't have troublesome skin. A skin hack that I think I've really kind of brought into my life is less is more. I think I am... As bad as it is to say, I will go a couple days without washing my face, just 'cause I feel like overdoing it is when I notice issues coming up, as opposed to letting my skin kind of have its natural habitat for a minute, and then really investing. So I think, to me, that's one trick I learned, is it is definitely possible to overdo it, and I think being mindful of that with your clients who maybe you've tried all of these different homecare options, is maybe take a step back and just don't, just go back to the basics and go minimal. 
47:33 TD: I have to tell you, I think you just made my day by admitting, as an esthetician, that you don't maybe wash your face every day. I love that so much. 
47:45 DM: Yeah, I feel like I get judged whenever I say it, but I feel if I wash my face all the time, I feel like it gets messed up at that point. And I think that's something I've learned with my skin, is that it's happier when I am doing less. 
48:01 TD: Very good. And then, if anybody wants to look you up, where could they find you? Do you wanna share any of your social media channels?  
48:08 DM: I am... So my personal Instagram, I guess my skin care Instagram is 303_skinguy. And so that is my... 
48:22 TD: I love it. 
48:25 DM: Skin care Instagram, and then that's kind of where I will be. 
48:29 TD: Yeah, I love it. 
48:31 DM: I have just kind of deleted everything because I am launching a new business in the fall, and so new content will be getting pushed on that soon. 
48:41 TD: Oh, see, you guys, now he's teasing us with new content coming soon. So we'll definitely have to look him back up, right?  
48:50 DM: Definitely so. 
48:51 TD: Ella, did you wanna brag on him anymore before we go?  
48:53 EC: I am just so proud of Dylan. I just think he's amazing. He's... Even over here, I'm smiling ear to ear, like aww. Because I just saw in him so many awesome things, and just to watch him grow as a human and as a professional has been a real joy. So I can't wait to see where else you go, Dylan. 
49:14 DM: I appreciate it. I did... I did learn everything I know from Ella. 
49:19 EC: Not everything... 
49:20 TD: Oh, boy, don't say that again. She'll just get gigantic head. You know her. 
49:24 DM: Need to gas her up more. 
49:26 EC: Not everything because almost enough [49:28] ____. 
49:29 DM: Just 98% of it. 
49:31 EC: Yeah. 
49:32 TD: Well, thank you so much, Dylan. Have a wonderful rest of your day, and I hope you guys all enjoyed this podcast. 
49:38 DM: Thank you so much. You guys as well. 
49:38 EC: Thank you, guys. Bye. 
49:41 TD: Bye. 
49:42 TD: Thanks for joining us today. If you like what you hear and you want more, subscribe. If you wanna belong to the only all-inclusive association for estheticians, that includes professional liability insurance, education, industry insights and an opportunity to spotlight your sick skills, join at ascpskincare.com. Only $259 per year for all this goodness. ASCP knows it's all about you

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